The importance of acoustics just cannot be overstated!
AND SET UP!!!!
Damon,Hi DaveyF, glad to share my insight.
I don't think what I'm about to say will be revolutionary to anyone on this forum but we'll see
Considering what component upgrade may have the greatest impact on any particular system is what we all struggle with; either in our personal system, a friend's system, a potential customer or even a system we're preparing to present at a show. It's an exercise we do regularly. And Leif and I consider these things together; we argue, we experiment, we confirm
First, let me lay some disclaimers down.
1 - I won't speak for any hypothetical product or generalize the performance of all the products in a category. Instead I'll try be very specific.
2 - I don't consider the isolation of electronics a "tweak." From my experience and in my mind it's a critical component to achieving higher levels of performance; especially so in very high-performance systems.
3 - In every situation, your miles will vary.
Considering Leif's current home system, he has our $40K Endeavor E-5 MkII being driven by roughly $8K in Audio Alchemy source and amplification. And he presently has a modest rack that I would estimate provides very little if any isolation. From my first-hand experience of adding $6K of the original CS footers (zero CS2 footers), the improvement in the signal being transmitted by the Audio Alchemy front-end to the E-5 MkII was far superior (by a magnitude not a percentage) than swapping out the line stage and amplifier with ones that I highly respect (and have won several Best of Show with) that cost 7.5 times as much. Clearly the footers were the better choice to me, the greatest ROI. In this case, the weakest link in the chain was isolation, not the quality of the front-end.
Now on to the hypothetical proposition of swapping out the E-5 MkII (again $40K) with the ULTRA 11 ($300K or 7.5 times as much), I would estimate the improvement would not be as great.
While the ULTRA 11 is far more revealing than the E-5 MkII, the weakest link in Leif's system was the isolation issues with the front-end. So upgrading the loudspeakers would have little positive affect.
In my consideration, it might even degrade the overall performance with the ULTRA 11 exposing issues that are less perceptible on the E-5 MkII. I think the old hack "garbage in, garbage out" would apply in this case. Loudspeakers perform at the level of what's put in front of them, period. They are incapable of improving the source, only diminishing it.
So in this case I think improving the signal going into the E-5MkII is the better choice than breaking our backs moving the ULTRA 11 into Leif's sound room. You haven't seen his stairs. Let's wait until we significantly upgrade the front-end first![]()
Hello Ron,
You are, of course, correct, and I am only too happy to comply. The original comment was made to illustrate my point! Go back to where I said that this was the last time I intended to be polite when calling bull. However, that is no excuse, and as I was aggravated enough to make the example, you have my assurances that I clearly do not need to stoop to the use of profanity to make my points... I hope that you, and the forum members in general, will accept my sincere apologies for that transgression.
And, as to point 3, I was not suggesting that if you had not heard the item under discussion that you should not be able to ask questions or offer intelligent contributions to the conversations. I did state, as a fact, that if you have not heard the item/s in question, by definition you have nothing of any merit to offer as to how they sound or do not sound! That is simple logic. If I've never driven a Porsche 911, I have absolutely no grounds to say that it handles better or worse than a Chevy Corvette...
I’m with you Tang, all this extra hubub to a review has significantly peaked my interest. Question becomes, where does one begin? (And the next question, where does it end.)
Jack, thanks for taking time to offer your advice. I'm sorry to hear you are going through sad times. I'll say a little prayer the angel of grace finds the way to you.
I was thinking the preamp would be a place any benefit would be heard throughout the system (and I wouldn't be able to use the biggest of the footers in my rack, so they'd be less costly as well.)
Warm regards.
Wowza. What a powderkeg of a thread!
I'm too busy being entertained to even comment other to say that it's not been a particularly good day on the gameboard for decorum.
I understand where you are coming from, Al, but c) and d), above, are unfair.
I think it is fair to expect that someone who has auditioned a product and who reports a 2X to 3X increase in sound quality/believablility to be aware of the strong likelihood that people who have not heard the product will find the reported claim to be hyperbole.
But I think you go too far in suggesting that the auditioner should decline to report what he/she believes to be his honest appraisal. Skepticism should be expected, but self-censorship should not be demanded.
Point d) is fatally infused with the flaw in c).
Hi PeterA
Always good to hear from you. I think you described an A/B. In/Out. The cool part is the final /A. From my direct experience, depending on the support system, removing the feet can be likened to a balloon popping or a balloon with a slow leak. I find the best way to do the A/B/A is to listen to the system with them settled in/take them all out, go to lunch for 2 hours leaving the system playing, return and listen/ then put them all back in. I did this with JV and it was really something.
All the Best,
Joe
Hi Al
The way I see it, disband the hyperbole police. Let the exuberant run wild. Why not?
Discussion is always good. Arrogance is always bad in my opinion. This thread has seen both and I will not point fingers at which contributors on this thread I believe fall in the discussion and which fall into the arrogance groups. However, I will add my two cents from my personal experience with the original CMS footers and two versions of the CMS V2 footers, especially as one of the Beta Testers for V1 and V2. One advantage of being a beta tester is there is no other reports to bias initial impressions. Steve was raving about these and asked Marty and me to evaluate them and get back to him. Both Marty and I have been in audio for a while and have heard some great equipment and more than our share of overhyped new entries. Therefore, we were both skeptical, but proceeded to help Steve as promised.
The first evidence that we were on a totally new trip came when we each initially placed the V1 footers progressively into our respective systems. The first evidence was how bad the sound was, which demonstrated that they did something profound, whether good or bad TBD. As time went on after several days (4-5) there was some sense of improvement back to my prefooter sound. By day 10 we were both in new territory, but had some differences in our perspectives, with Marty being the more skeptical and scientific. By day 15 I was unable to explain what was going on, but knew that I liked it a lot. By day 20 I was experiencing some of the best sound I had ever had, and clearly dramatically better sound than the same system without the footers.
My biggest assessment was the level of cohesion of my system to levels that were new to me and incredibly enjoyable. Then Steve said we had to return the V1 prototypes for V1 production models.. This was truly telling because once I pulled them out of my system and waited about 2 weeks to get the production models, I basically did not listen while they were gone because I did not enjoy it. Other than having to go through another break in, there was little change from the prototypes. When the V2's arrived, the break-in was quite a bit shorter (50%) to excellent sound, but the best was yet to come, the extension of the V2 improvements to realms that previously unheard with the V1 footers. I even bought four more 1" footers for my Niagara 7000, which believe it or not made a difference, albeit not as much as my front and back end, but clearly audible.
As I am now about to replace my current system with my hopefully final system during the next several months as the speakers (VSA Ultra 9's and VAC electronics all connected with full loom of MasterBuilt Ultra Wire arrive, there is no doubt that an ESSENTIAL component of this hopefully super system will be the CMS footers under everything, with the addition of 4 1.5" footers under my VAC Statement 450IQ Stereo Amp.
I'll let you know what I think, but the question is not if they will help, but how much!
Someone posts enthusiasm about a great product that performs amazingly well then gets mobbed with criticism from people who haven’t heard it....gee I wonder what’s that’s like?
Congrats on a great product (Joe/Steve) and great moderation (Ron)
I disagree with that view. I think reviewers and enthusiasts have an obligation to carefully articulate conclusions in a measured way as (1) these may influence the purchase decisions of less experienced, less wealthy enthusiasts and (2) results can vary wildly across different systems (as has been pointed out earlier in this thread by DaveC and others). I think it’s significant that there has been no controversy over Alan Sircom’s review of the CS2 Footers (already shared in this thread).
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