Greg Weaver Reviews Center Stage 2 In Positive Feedback

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, I wish I could afford the CMS racks at this time, but the speakers, VAC equipment and the MB loom are over a $400k upgrade and I am just a poor psychiatrist.

I totally understand. I truly was just curious. Apparently the CS footers achieve some of the sonic benefits of the CMS racks, so you will be all set!

I think the CMS racks are fantastic and highly effective (as well as great-looking and beautifully-made). The only reason I went in a different direction was so that my two side stands match the stand for the turntable (so all three stands match).

Someday, if the house is ever finished, and if my system is ever set up, and if everything works, and if I spend a few to many months understanding the system and getting things adjusted preliminarily (hopefully with a lot of assistance and constructive criticism and suggestions from friends here), then I look forward to experimenting with the CS footers myself in the future.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hi DaveyF, glad to share my insight.

I don't think what I'm about to say will be revolutionary to anyone on this forum but we'll see

Considering what component upgrade may have the greatest impact on any particular system is what we all struggle with; either in our personal system, a friend's system, a potential customer or even a system we're preparing to present at a show. It's an exercise we do regularly. And Leif and I consider these things together; we argue, we experiment, we confirm

First, let me lay some disclaimers down.

1 - I won't speak for any hypothetical product or generalize the performance of all the products in a category. Instead I'll try be very specific.
2 - I don't consider the isolation of electronics a "tweak." From my experience and in my mind it's a critical component to achieving higher levels of performance; especially so in very high-performance systems.
3 - In every situation, your miles will vary.

Considering Leif's current home system, he has our $40K Endeavor E-5 MkII being driven by roughly $8K in Audio Alchemy source and amplification. And he presently has a modest rack that I would estimate provides very little if any isolation. From my first-hand experience of adding $6K of the original CS footers (zero CS2 footers), the improvement in the signal being transmitted by the Audio Alchemy front-end to the E-5 MkII was far superior (by a magnitude not a percentage) than swapping out the line stage and amplifier with ones that I highly respect (and have won several Best of Show with) that cost 7.5 times as much. Clearly the footers were the better choice to me, the greatest ROI. In this case, the weakest link in the chain was isolation, not the quality of the front-end.

Now on to the hypothetical proposition of swapping out the E-5 MkII (again $40K) with the ULTRA 11 ($300K or 7.5 times as much), I would estimate the improvement would not be as great.

While the ULTRA 11 is far more revealing than the E-5 MkII, the weakest link in Leif's system was the isolation issues with the front-end. So upgrading the loudspeakers would have little positive affect.

In my consideration, it might even degrade the overall performance with the ULTRA 11 exposing issues that are less perceptible on the E-5 MkII. I think the old hack "garbage in, garbage out" would apply in this case. Loudspeakers perform at the level of what's put in front of them, period. They are incapable of improving the source, only diminishing it.

So in this case I think improving the signal going into the E-5MkII is the better choice than breaking our backs moving the ULTRA 11 into Leif's sound room. You haven't seen his stairs. Let's wait until we significantly upgrade the front-end first

With all respect, Damon (and Leif), I find this baffling. But I completely understand the concept behind what you are saying.

This is an "admission against interest" and thus exceptionally persuasive. I have not heard an A/B/A with the CS footers, so I take you (and Leif) at your words.

I look forward to experimenting with the CS footers myself someday!

 

[AudioAnalyst]

Ron, I wish I could afford the CMS racks at this time, but the speakers, VAC equipment and the MB loom are over a $400k upgrade and I am just a poor psychiatrist.

Brother, I can't wait to be "poor" enough to own the gear you are moving into! I'm not really sure if you are bragging or complaining! ;-) Have a great weekend, my friend...

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

I woke up Tuesday morning with a stiff swollen neck and went to the walk in and got told I have a cellulitis infection and to take some antibiotics and a couple days off and if it does not get better in 36 hours to go to ER.

Wednesday I wake up and my ear is almost double in size and flaming red along with my neck and with intense pain. I go to a stand alone ER and check in. I am in the room and Doctor Dave comes in talks to me for a minute, looks at me and leaves the room. A couple minutes later he returns with nurse in tow with an IV cart. I look at him and I know the $hit is deep. He says "Your in trouble, we are starting an IV and we have already called an ambulance for transport to the main hospital".

At the hospital I am on 24 hour continuous rotation of antibiotics, steroids and Percocet dreams along with the constant blood draws for four days. Deep into the double digits on the number of bags hung on the machine. Turns out I have a raging strep infection. Scared the hell out of me and the wife. Obviously a little time on my hands to reflect, if even via Percocet.

So I am released today with a normal sized and almost normal colored ear, swelling mostly gone, feel better, continue with oral antibiotics and rest and jump on line and see how my audio buddies are doing and this thread pops up...

Guys, this is some unacceptable behavior from grown a$$ adults. Its as bad as any of the political threads. You cant stomp you feet and keep shouting the same thing over and over and change some ones mind, that is a futile objective. State your case, voice your opinion and be done with it in one maybe two posts. Some thinly veiled name calling and profane language that is unacceptable.

There is an increasing amount of this here lately and it needs to stop. Trying to beat someone into believing your way is the right and only way is detrimental to the "hobby".

Man my body is pissed at me right now, sit back and enjoy the music guys.

 

[NorthStar]

Mike, you deserve the best health. Take it easy and get better each and everyday.
We're in a new era...2019, and it can only get better; we have the power, the brain and all that jazz.

 

[Sa-dono]

Also IF you had read further Joe stated that the idea of improving the CS to version 2 came to him almost by serendipity and he sees absolutely no way that any further improvement to CS2 can be made. This has been stated here several times yet "you" continue to fan the flames.

I have no input on the back and forth, as isolation like all elements will come down to the listener and their system. As such, I have no problem with subjective reviews, and any unbridled enthusiasm.

CS buyers are spending their money, so if they feel it's worth their money, it is. I understand how others may feel that money could be more wisely allocated elsewhere, and for them, maybe it is.

As to the above, while bazello's comment may have had another purpose, unless you have a hidden crystal ball or 100% accurate psychic I don't know about, there is no way of knowing there won't be a CS3. At the release date of the CS1, Joe probably saw no way to improve it, either. Unless Joe is done, there is nothing saying there won't be another moment of serendipity.

As with all things tech related, if someone always waits, they'll never buy. And despite what manufacturers would have buyers believe, newer is not always better.

 

[joelavrencik]

I have no input on the back and forth, as isolation like all elements will come down to the listener and their system. As such, I have no problem with subjective reviews, and any unbridled enthusiasm.

CS buyers are spending their money, so if they feel it's worth their money, it is. I understand how others may feel that money could be more wisely allocated elsewhere, and for them, maybe it is.

As to the above, while bazello's comment may have had another purpose, unless you have a hidden crystal ball or 100% accurate psychic I don't know about, there is no way of knowing there won't be a CS3. At the release date of the CS1, Joe probably saw no way to improve it, either. Unless Joe is done, there is nothing saying there won't be another moment of serendipity.

As with all things tech related, if someone always waits, they'll never buy. And despite what manufacturers would have buyers believe, newer is not always better.

Sa-dono

With all due respect, the difference between me and you is I’m the guy who’s doing it. You have no right to contradict my statement. There is no CS3 for the very reason you allude to. The CS2 balance is so finely tuned, 1/1000th changes result in a trade-off. I don’t do trade-offs. Period.

There will be 2 more versions for turntables/loudspeakers different than the current version. I’ve moved on. I’m mentally done with CS2. That’s it. Don’t assume you know more about me than I do.

Regards,

JL

 

[bazelio]

Sa-dono

With all due respect, the difference between me and you is I’m the guy who’s doing it. You have no right to contradict my statement. There is no CS3 for the very reason you allude to. The CS2 balance is so finely tuned, 1/1000th changes result in a trade-off. I don’t do trade-offs. Period.

There will be 2 more versions for turntables/loudspeakers different than the current version. I’ve moved on. I’m mentally done with CS2. That’s it. Don’t assume you know more about me than I do.

Regards,

JL

You seem rather truculent in response to what is a valid concern from consumers. After all, we see it all the time with smaller boutique audio product manufacturers. When they have one main product (or a very small product base) and the initial hype train starts to lose steam, they are often faced with needing to rev it back up. A one hit wonder does not a business make. And how better to do so than by releasing a "new and improved" revision. At that point existing customers are either left with an obsolete early version of a current product or will need to spend money to upgrade (if an option to do so is provided) especially if they ever decide to sell. I'm sympathetic to newer, smaller businesses trying to compete against the big boys. I think you should also be sympathetic to these sort of concerns from potential customers. Early adopters begin to feel like beta testers. So, I don't think anyone is claiming to know more than you about your own product. But in this hobby: once bitten, twice shy. It's good to hear you'll expand the breadth of your product offering to turntable and speaker footers. That makes sense.

For the curious, could you explain this a bit more: "so finely tuned, 1/1000th changes result in a trade-off". It seems there will be a wide variation in application resulting from the varying weight of the load being isolated. Does a 5 pound load vs a 50 pound load under the same footers not introduce greater than 1/1000th variability?

 

[the sound of Tao]

Reflection and hindsight are fabulous things. I am among those who have invested fairly heavily in trying to solve the isolation and resonance system riddle and I started naively with 8 smaller Stillpoints and ended up with near stupid amounts of Ultra 5s. Do I regret. Well no, it’s just the nature of those feet that it is an all in kind of journey and in the end it took that many to make them ideally work as an overall outcome.

Were I to start today my then future self (hmmmm) might give me a somewhat different strategy.

So while I’ve made the Stillpoints ultimately work for me I’ve also since had experience with individually tuned SRA racks with a pair of 300B SET amps and getting compliance right for these seemed a great approach. If I was set for life wrt the components I was going to keep this would be more viable. If your likely to even occasionally be changing components then individually custom tuned platforms may not prove so ideal.

Tim A. (Aka Tima) was the first person that I read (quite some years back) that put the barrel of monkeys we call tweaks into a parcel and referred to these things as system infrastructure and I’ve followed with this thinking and terminology ever since. Clearly system mods are a free wheel of shifts in which (as Tim recently so rightly points out) any comparisons are better understood through time.

Any of these experiences require you to ultimately determine outcomes not just quantatively and qualatively but also in part as well as in the whole. So cables, mechanical and electrical management, isolation and resonance control is an expansive and often expensive enmeshed journey that can teach any of us plenty if we can undertake it. One lesson alone is that perceived improvement itself can also be an addiction.

Now I don’t have the time to invest in such consuming explorations anymore so for me CMS seems to tick so many boxes that’d be the way I’d likely venture now.

The engineers and designers who do this process as their life work and use holistic as well as indivualistic assessment can clearly save us a lot of time if we can afford their products.

By following system based thinking from people who share the same aims, values and have similar preferences to us can be an ideal shorter pathway in the relatively crazy gogglebox of going through and trying out every configuration of every element and then assessing and digesting all the outcomes and experiences.

So if I was to launch into this afresh I’d currently go and try first with an approach with a lot of feedback and technical explanation on how the system works and has evolved. I’d likely now just simply go to CMS and either start with a basic CMS rack and adding footers later or vice versa getting a few sets of CMS footers first and adding more or the rack itself through time as either approach is still all part of one tried isolation system approach.

For me CMS looks good, is broadly well trialled, very well reviewed and is a system of integrated products with musical enjoyment at its core and clearly easier and more timely than going it alone and so avoid being consumed by trying to answer the epic isolation and resonance system riddle for one’s self.

 

[Sa-dono]

Sa-dono

With all due respect, the difference between me and you is I’m the guy who’s doing it. You have no right to contradict my statement. There is no CS3 for the very reason you allude to. The CS2 balance is so finely tuned, 1/1000th changes result in a trade-off. I don’t do trade-offs. Period.

There will be 2 more versions for turntables/loudspeakers different than the current version. I’ve moved on. I’m mentally done with CS2. That’s it. Don’t assume you know more about me than I do.

Regards,

JL

JL,

With all due respect, are you claiming some type of clairvoyance?

1) When you released the CS1, did you intend to release the CS2?

2) If serendipity or advancement in materials occurred, whether for your stands or footers, are you saying you will never release a CS3 or other newly named footer?

I guess if you want to put your money where your mouth and confidence is, please right here and now offer FREE UPGRADES if you ever release a CS3 or new upgraded footer. If you're willing to do such, I will certainly believe the definiteness of your statement. If not, and I certainly understand the reasons not to, the future is unwritten.

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

JL,
I guess if you want to put your money where your mouth and confidence is, please right here and now offer FREE UPGRADES if you ever release a CS3 or new upgraded footer. If you're willing to do such, I will certainly believe the definiteness of your statement. If not, and I certainly understand the reasons not to, the future is unwritten.

Dude (assuming)...so whenever any manufacture makes an upgrade to a product they automatically owe any previous buyers the new versions free...Do you hear yourself when you speak?

 

[Sa-dono]

Dude (assuming)...so whenever any manufacture makes an upgrade to a product they automatically owe any previous buyers the new versions free...Do you hear yourself when you speak?

Absolutely not! That and your understanding of the matter are illogical.

If there is no new version like he claims, there will never be anything to upgrade for free. In other words, he would lose nothing if he is certain of what he says.

I am not Joe, nor do I know what he is thinking, but unless he somehow knows the future, his overconfidence and bravado are unearned and nonsensical, IMHO. If someone thinks otherwise, please list how many top of the line stands CMS has released over the years. They've already had 2 versions of the footers. I have no problem with such. That is how business and technology advancements work.

 

[bazelio]

Dude (assuming)...so whenever any manufacture makes an upgrade to a product they automatically owe any previous buyers the new versions free...Do you hear yourself when you speak?

Free is unreasonable. And this is more a concern with small manufacturers trying build new business, rather than "any" manufacturer. People don't like it when a product becomes obsolete mere months after purchase. So I would suggest a pledge to simply do right by their early adopters if and when new revisions come out. I've seen some companies offer "at cost" upgrades, for example. There are many ways to handle it which can earn the trust of customers. Similarly, there are many ways to lose it or never earn it in the first place.

 

[Steve Williams]

All users of version 1 were offered an at cost upgrade to version 2

Does that make you feel better.

 

[bazelio]

I find that perfectly reasonable. What was the cost per foot?

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

Free is unreasonable. And this is more a concern with small manufacturers trying build new business, rather than "any" manufacturer. People don't like it when a product becomes obsolete mere months after purchase. So I would suggest a pledge to simply do right by their early adopters if and when new revisions come out. I've seen some companies offer "at cost" upgrades, for example. There are many ways to handle it which can earn the trust of customers. Similarly, there are many ways to lose it or never earn it in the first place.

Not in the world I live in. You buy something your an owner. You want the upgraded product, you buy it or live with what you have, its the cost of ownership. People may not like it but it is what it is. If an offer is extended then great, if not move on with your next decision.

IIRC there was an offer extended.

Edit Steve you beat me to it while I was typing this.

 

[Steve Williams]

I find that perfectly reasonable. What was the cost per foot?

I said. It was an at cost replacement. Arithmetic

Cost of version 2 minus cost of version 1=at cost replacement.

 

[bazelio]

Not in the world I live in. You buy something your an owner. You want the upgraded product, you buy it or live with what you have, its the cost of ownership. People may not like it but it is what it is. If an offer is extended then great, if not move on with your next decision.

Many companies have a different idea of what good customer service means. They realize they aren't in the audio business. They realize they aren't even in the isolation footer business, turntable business, speaker business, et. al. They realize they're in the business of winning and keeping customers and they take a different approach. Glad to see CMS is one of them.

 

[bazelio]

I said. It was an at cost replacement. Arithmetic

Cost of version 2 minus cost of version 1=at cost replacement.

That's fair. Not necessarily "at cost", but perfectly fair IMO. I would also have to believe these upgrades are a hassle for CMS, and one they'd prefer to avoid.

 

[JackD201]

I remember the early to mid 2000s, on forums and comments of show reports practically nobody was paying attention to shelves and racks except maybe a few specifically for turntables. Footers had already been accepted as things that make differences. The roller block jr and vibrapods I believe were most influential sinnce they were affordable and had a very different form factor than the earlier accepted spikes.

I did notice that manufacturers and exhibitors were giving racks great import. There were popular racks for sure but speaking to them, the manufacturers and exhibitors that is, I was surprised to learn that many owned their own sets of these yet unheralded racks and that these were part of their development tool sets and show "arsenals'. If you look back at show reports it can be kinda funny in hindsight. You see the racks not mentioned in the reports at all but certain rack manufacturers seemed to always be present under best of show contenders and winners. The "Secret Weapons" most seen but not noticed were SRA and CMS. HRS soon followed. Eventually the pattern became too hard to ignore and reviewers like Tim, Jason and Art pretty much exposed the secret at least where the US was concerned.

Has it been almost 20 years? Man, time flies.

CMS and HRS now make footers and footer makers are now making racks. Somehow it isn't surprising at all. It's not surprising either that the CS works great with CMS racks, HRS's Nimbus with HRS racks and Stillpoints with Stillpoint's racks.

It's reached a point where mixing and matching is akin to mixing and matching electronics. There is gold to be found but a lot of digging and processing to do first. That goes with going with the same manufacturers too albeit typically less work is required. So no, I don't think there are silver bullets. What makes me happy is that unlike before, for those that are interested in this part of the hobby there's now lots of ammo to try.