Grounding Boxes

[microstrip]

Thanks. But let me ask- before I hook up the ground box- if there is 0 resistance on my test meter when measuring resistance from the RCA (-) to my chassis ground, and no voltage difference, then may I assume correctly that there shouldn't be/cannot be any sonic difference in connecting to the RCA (-) or the chassis ground? Make sense?

No, unfortunately you can't assume. Your meter is not sensitive enough to diagnose how the signal grounding of your unit was designed. But if you do not have an optimum chassis ground the RCA(-) will do.

Nothing can be surely predicted with these devices. They can change the sound signature of a system in a way people enjoy, but contrary to what the SGC people say IMHO they are VooDoo - no scientific or technical explanation behind them.

 

[Cellcbern]

Thanks. But let me ask- before I hook up the ground box- if there is 0 resistance on my test meter when measuring resistance from the RCA (-) to my chassis ground, and no voltage difference, then may I assume correctly that there shouldn't be/cannot be any sonic difference in connecting to the RCA (-) or the chassis ground? Make sense?

I make no assumptions when it comes to audio - I listen.

 

[LL21]

Marty - your scientific rigour is always to be lauded and encouraged. If you can find out why (or why not) anything in grounding is working or not working, let the rest of us know.

That said, one of my objective tests is simply understanding complex choral music...if I can understand more words than before, I do not think that is just a stylistic change of character...it is greater clarity. In my current case of Entreq version 2 (we had an excellent experiment for the last 3 weeks which we have disassembled in place of one which might be the actual order we make.)...we have not only found choral and background words definitively more understandable, but we also found bass lines hidden very deep in tracks which we did not realize were in there now playing very easily in syncopated rhythm with strings because it had been 'teased out' of the complex instrumentation. The bass line is not strong nor emphasized...its actually quite quiet...but it is THERE where before the instrumentation was just that bit more 'massed'.

I have always said I am no techie...all I can say is 'try it'. You dont have to like it...it might not even do anything. In our case, so far, the qualities are real (again, word count in complex chorals and soundtracks) and we are really, really liking what we are hearing.

Note, Marty, as in my description of the original Entreq experiment, virtually nil happened other than some 'nice changes but nothing extraordinary'...until day 5.5. We knew this one would take longer...it is day 9.5 and even at day 9 it was definitely improving by day along the same trajectory as before...but taking longer and just getting to the point of us wondering if it would succeed. Only the last few hours suggest there is the dawning of great success coming.

 

[matakana]

I'm a bit confused. What part of the RCA plug is being attached to the spade end of the ground cable that attaches the the SG box? Is it the (-) or the (+) of the RCA? If it's the (-), then isn't this the same as a chassis ground, assuming the (-) of the RCA is attached to the chassis ground? Thanks in advance.

There is a page on the SGS website that helps with explaining the different grounding.

 

[wil]

No, unfortunately you can't assume. Your meter is not sensitive enough to diagnose how the signal grounding of your unit was designed. But if you do not have an optimum chassis ground the RCA(-) will do.

Nothing can be surely predicted with these devices. They can change the sound signature of a system in a way people enjoy, but contrary to what the SGC people say IMHO they are VooDoo - no scientific or technical explanation behind them.

"VooDoo" but I see you own the Nordost QKORE. Do you find good results?

 

[microstrip]

"VooDoo" but I see you own the Nordost QKORE. Do you find good results?

Yes, I own two Qkore 6 - the dCS Vivaldi stack almost fills one of them. I borrowed them for evaluation and in the end I bough them. Particularly when used with the Nordost QBase there is an increase of fluidity and dynamics in my system. Could I live without them? Probably yes, in my system the difference is much less than, for example, replacing the stock digital and clock cables of the Vivaldi stack with the Transparent Reference XL digital cables - another successful VooDoo! But in a friend system ( DartZeel / Magico) the difference was night and day.

Remember that most of what we have in the high-end is VooDoo - if it was pure science applying technology we surely could have equivalent sounding at a lower price. I consider that 99% of mains devices, including power cables, is VooDoo! But I have found that, as long as manufacturers avoid using the words "quantum" our members are very permissive to VooDoo theories.

IMHO with such type of devices we have to try them in our systems with an open mind, even if we do not understand how they work. And surely for me an open mind means alone in our rooms, screened from the influence of marketing and mentors.

 

[LL21]

Yes, I own two Qkore 6 - the dCS Vivaldi stack almost fills one of them. I borrowed them for evaluation and in the end I bough them. Particularly when used with the Nordost QBase there is an increase of fluidity and dynamics in my system. Could I live without them? Probably yes, in my system the difference is much less than, for example, replacing the stock digital and clock cables of the Vivaldi stack with the Transparent Reference XL digital cables - another successful VooDoo! But in a friend system ( DartZeel / Magico) the difference was night and day.

Remember that most of what we have in the high-end is VooDoo - if it was pure science applying technology we surely could have equivalent sounding at a lower price. I consider that 99% of mains devices, including power cables, is VooDoo! But I have found that, as long as manufacturers avoid using the words "quantum" our members are very permissive to VooDoo theories.

IMHO with such type of devices we have to try them in our systems with an open mind, even if we do not understand how they work. And surely for me an open mind means alone in our rooms, screened from the influence of marketing and mentors.

Very interesting...I have always respected that you do a lot of your own measurements and have a technical grasp of things (I do not) which you use in your own evaluation/understanding of sound systems and individual pieces of equipment.

For me, what I have found so far in grounding is that nothing in the system (not tubes, not isolation, not cables or any major piece of equipment) quite hits the improvement in sound, the way that music (and sung words) become clearer, literally more understandable...not just in terms of clarity of the sung word/speech/articulation...but also in the same vein, the articulation of an individual note, the tiny, tiny hesitancies, nuances within a single layering of the playing of a note. It is something quite special to hear inflection points in the violin string being played or the breathiness of a flute note.

I have no technical understanding other than to say that this does feel like some kind of artifice/overlay/noise has been removed...and not removed as in archived records being stripped bare with Dalby noise reduction...but that a kind of noise (is it emi/rfi?) has by itself been removed, and enabled the system's playback of these nuances to be heard for the first time.

In that sense, for me, it is NOT something I would want to have removed once heard. Believe me, when we took the first Entreq grounding setup out about 2 weeks ago, it was quite an adjustment to go 'back' to the system without. And the bake-in process of the current Entreq grounding setup has been quite a process all over again, only just getting back around day 9.5 to almost where it used to be. Now beginning day 13.5 and it is still improving slowly but steadily.

 

[microstrip]

Very interesting...I have always respected that you do a lot of your own measurements and have a technical grasp of things (I do not) which you use in your own evaluation/understanding of sound systems and individual pieces of equipment.

For me, what I have found so far in grounding is that nothing in the system (not tubes, not isolation, not cables or any major piece of equipment) quite hits the improvement in sound, the way that music (and sung words) become clearer, literally more understandable...not just in terms of clarity of the sung word/speech/articulation...but also in the same vein, the articulation of an individual note, the tiny, tiny hesitancies, nuances within a single layering of the playing of a note. It is something quite special to hear inflection points in the violin string being played or the breathiness of a flute note.

I have no technical understanding other than to say that this does feel like some kind of artifice/overlay/noise has been removed...and not removed as in archived records being stripped bare with Dalby noise reduction...but that a kind of noise (is it emi/rfi?) has by itself been removed, and enabled the system's playback of these nuances to be heard for the first time.

In that sense, for me, it is NOT something I would want to have removed once heard. Believe me, when we took the first Entreq grounding setup out about 2 weeks ago, it was quite an adjustment to go 'back' to the system without. And the bake-in process of the current Entreq grounding setup has been quite a process all over again, only just getting back around day 9.5 to almost where it used to be. Now beginning day 13.5 and it is still improving slowly but steadily.

As I said, it all depends on system and location - and not all "pseudo-grounding" devices are alike. If our location has a lot of RF noise, polluted ground line, mains noise and the system is sensitive to such noise, probably the effect of these devices will be more effective.

Although I like measurements, the bandwidth of the measurements I carry is mostly in the audio band - and the VooDoo works in the sones of the electromagnetic spectrum I can't measure. If we use our ears as measurement tools we must remember that many times we prefer the sound with more electrical noise added to the system!

 

[LL21]

As I said, it all depends on system and location - and not all "pseudo-grounding" devices are alike. If our location has a lot of RF noise, polluted ground line, mains noise and the system is sensitive to such noise, probably the effect of these devices will be more effective.

Although I like measurements, the bandwidth of the measurements I carry is mostly in the audio band - and the VooDoo works in the sones of the electromagnetic spectrum I can't measure. If we use our ears as measurement tools we must remember that many times we prefer the sound with more electrical noise added to the system!

In regards to 'adding' more electrical noise...does it make any sense that 'adding noise' makes the words in complex choral music MORE understandable? As in, I understand more words with Tripoint and Entreq acting as these 'chassis grounding/signal grounding units'...even if it means they are somehow adding something?

 

[Cellcbern]

To refresh everyone's memory, below is the link to the review that sparked my interest in the Groundmaster City device. Since the price was so low compared to the "high end" (e.g., Telos, CAD, Entreq, Nordost) grounding boxes and I hadn't invested in any of them yet, I decided to try this "cheap" solution.

Puritan Audio Labs GroundMaster CITY and RouteMaster system by Terry London

Note that the same reviewer claimed on the Audiogon forum that this cheap solution was superior to the much more expensive Nordost Qkore, and several posters on that forum claimed to have gotten better results from Groundmaster than from Entreq. I have made no comparisons and make no such claims, however if I have the opportunity to do a head to head between my cheap solution and one of the expensive grounding boxes I will.

Audiogon Discussion Forum

My review on the Puritan Audio Labs GroundMaster CITY and RouteMaster grounding system has just gone up on the Stereo Times website. For all the details...

forum.audiogon.com

As I indicated in a previous post, connecting a Groundmaster City device to unused rca ports on my amp and player (signal grounding) yielded an audible improvement in clarity, articulation, and naturalness that was significant enough to make it a keeper in my system. I did not hear the same level of incremental improvement initially from the addition of chassis grounding via a 2nd Groundmaster City. I will listen for several days to see what if any improvement the chassis grounding makes, and report back.

Final tweak on my "cheap" grounding solution - replaced the green cables that come with the Puritan Groundmaster City (see photos above in Post #77) with the Russ Andrews "Groundweave" (Kimber) wires. I hear a small improvement with the Russ Andrews cables.

 

[ozzzy]

Yesterday, I disconnected the Russ Andrews unit from the Entreq. I feel the music sounds better with the Russ Andrews unit connected to just my chassis ground. ie; Lumin X1 ground terminal and the AC ground into my Niagara 7000.

ozzy

 

[hongkongfoufou]

I received my SGS Zebrano Signature less than a month back. It took me over a week to find the right connections, it wasn’t a simple plug & play affair. Per the designer Andrew Bairstow, grounding via the “chassis ground is usually best however SGS is rather unique as you can do signal ground, ITS ONE OR THE OTHER NOT MIXED.” And yes, when I mixed the grounding, the sound actually worsened.

But thanks to some great communication with Andrew, I found the best place to hook up the cables from the Zebrano to my equipment and now super pleased with the results.

The SGS improves almost all aspects of space in the soundstage width, depth and most important presence. The stage becomes blacker, and more 3D like in presentation. Bass lines are easier to hear and it’s a more relaxed and enjoyable presentation with voices and instruments coming out of nowhere. Initially I thought my system was wonderful (which it was IMHO). It isn’t until you disconnect the SGS from the components that you fully understand what’s really going on.

(Dealer disclaimer)

Hi,

Can we know the price of this Zebrano, please?
Thank you very much

 

[plasmod3]

Chassis ground I find works better than signal ground with the zebrano

 

[SOS]

Here is the retail price of the Zebrano 3

SGS Products

Audio grounding box.

signalgroundsolutions.com

In US dollars it's just around $3100.

 

[defride]

Chassis ground I find works better than signal ground with the zebrano

Interesting, for me Zebrano worked better signal grounding digital and the amp.

 

[SOS]

Just to be clear, the $3100 retail price quoted above is at todays exchange rate. I actually paid over $2,000 for for my Pinnacle-4 about 8 months back based on what the exchange rates were then. Not complaining but at todays exchange rates if buying in Euro's or GBP things are good deals currently.

 

[nortberg]

Interesting, for me Zebrano worked better signal grounding digital and the amp.

I have the SGS 1 signature and I too found grounding signal to be better than chassis. One box to ground Melco server and amp. As already said, blacker background, greater three dimensionality and calmness. I made my own ground cable for the amp using Russ Andrews Groundweave and sourced the same copper crocodile clips SGS use. Can only imagine how much better the Zebrano is.

 

[OnusConsulting]

I have the SGS 1 signature and I too found grounding signal to be better than chassis. One box to ground Melco server and amp. As already said, blacker background, greater three dimensionality and calmness. I made my own ground cable for the amp using Russ Andrews Groundweave and sourced the same copper crocodile clips SGS use. Can only imagine how much better the Zebrano is.

Just to be clear, the $3100 retail price quoted above is at todays exchange rate. I actually paid over $2,000 for for my Pinnacle-4 about 8 months back based on what the exchange rates were then. Not complaining but at todays exchange rates if buying in Euro's or GBP things are good deals currently.

Originally, I evaluate the Sebano- then I bought a Pinnacle 2 (custom simpler box- which I used for chassis ground) from SOS. Here's my take on what it did for me. I chose to evaluate grounding boxes after upgrading the Power Cables, and Interconnects.
Most instruments will sound fuller. Drums are snappier. Overall, it improves on the sound.
The effect is Immediate. You listen to a track- stop it, unplug (spade or banana plug) from the SGS box- play track again, and music is still very good (pre-grounding box), but some sounds are not as full and drums are not as snappy. Repeat, insert plugs- and the sound is better with the grounding box.
For me- my DAC have a chassis ground nut out to the amp which also have a chassis ground nut)- which make it super easy to insert the SGS Pinnacle into the system for evaluating chassis ground. For my setup I opted to not test signal ground (as I got a pretty good boost in SQ from chassis ground- I didn't try too hard to squeeze more performance out of it).
btw- OCD Guy have a you tube video where he discusses how easy it is to make/DIY your own (box, ferro-magnetic mixture, copper bars and a binding post of your choice).

sample tracks:
"Shelter" by Tedeschi Trucks Band- listen to the sound/duration/tone of the instruments at the beginning.
"Don't Misunderstand" by Melody Gardot- at the beginning there's this very quiet passage being played- she is sort of still humming but very softly, there's other things going on here at very low volume- and with the grounding box, you hear more of this in detail than without. This doesn't really add to the enjoyment of the song- but sort of neat to see resolving stuff is better.

 

[SOS]

Just a quick pic of Andrew Bairstow's latest Pinnacle-2 from Signal Ground Solution that member OnusConsulting is using.

 

[nortberg]

May have to re-evaluate chassis grounding in the near future, if I remember correctly this is where Andrew Bairstow thinks the greater benefits are to be found.