Grounding Boxes

[_Alchemist_]

...probably because it's not really a ground, in the accepted sense of the concept.

I don't want to challenge you but why not? Isn't the point of the ground to dissipate any voltages that don't belong into the ground?
(and create a voltage difference to activate the differential protection)

And isn't that the point of the grounding boxes as well? To absorb unwanted voltages?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I don't want to challenge you but why not? Isn't the point of the ground to dissipate any voltages that don't belong into the ground?
(and create a voltage difference to activate the differential protection)

And isn't that the point of the grounding boxes as well? To absorb unwanted voltages?

in the hifi vernacular, grounding boxes are intended to either be chassis or signal path 'settlers'. they 'settle' the signal path/circuit chaos and allow more nuance and subtlety in the music to come through. so no, grounding boxes are not really involved in 'fixing' any A/C power grid grounding issues; it's assumed that sort of thing is already well covered. it's possible grounding boxes do fix things in the course of what they are doing. but that's not the intent of them.

agree that the term 'grounding' does cause confusion as to what it's addressing.

grounding boxes are not really system building devices as they will cause confusion as to cause and effect; they are flavor adders; cherry on top of already sorted out systems. taking them where they otherwise can't go.

 

[_Alchemist_]

in the hifi vernacular, grounding boxes are intended to either be chassis or signal path 'settlers'. they 'settle' the signal path/circuit chaos and allow more nuance and subtlety in the music to come through. so no, grounding boxes are not really involved in 'fixing' any A/C power grid grounding issues; it's assumed that sort of thing is already well covered.

agree that the term 'grounding' does cause confusion as to what it's addressing.

grounding boxes are not really system building devices as they will cause confusion as to cause and effect; they are flavor adders; cherry on top of already sorted out systems. taking them where they otherwise can't go.

Thanks Mike, I agree it is confusing, at least for me it is.
The best thing as always is to plug and play!

 

[Cellcbern]

in the hifi vernacular, grounding boxes are intended to either be chassis or signal path 'settlers'. they 'settle' the signal path/circuit chaos and allow more nuance and subtlety in the music to come through. so no, grounding boxes are not really involved in 'fixing' any A/C power grid grounding issues; it's assumed that sort of thing is already well covered. it's possible grounding boxes do fix things in the course of what they are doing. but that's not the intent of them.

agree that the term 'grounding' does cause confusion as to what it's addressing.

grounding boxes are not really system building devices as they will cause confusion as to cause and effect; they are flavor adders; cherry on top of already sorted out systems. taking them where they otherwise can't go.

My understanding is that the "settling" you speak of involves providing a path and destination for draining noise riding on the ground, which can be achieved via both chassis connectors (e.g., rca) and in some cases casework. Is that not the case?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

My understanding is that the "settling" you speak of involves providing a path and destination for draining noise riding on the ground, which can be achieved via both chassis connectors (e.g., rca) and in some cases casework. Is that not the case?

so far i've not found a piece of gear including passive speakers (very slight) that does not get some lift from the Tripoint Troy Signature or Elite; the Entreq a more subtle effect that is not always audible (will every system get the same benefit?). and the cable used matters too. the Tripoint Thor or above being more effective.

can these same 'lifts' be found in some DIY manner? i've played around to some degree with this 'chassis connector' direction...and came up with nothing i could hear. 5 years ago i owned two sets of Tara Labs Grandmaster Evolution XLR and RCA interconnects with dual HFX grounding boxes (over $30k retail each set). it came with a bunch of tiny cables and bits to connect grounds to chassis. they really worked. and when i sold those cables later, i bought more of those cables and used them with my Entreq and speaker towers. whoa! big deal in the bass performance. connecting the chassis had no effects without the HFX boxes, or the Entreq. why? i have no idea.

my system is very, very quiet. so maybe in some systems playing around with grounding reduces noise. in my system that's not an issue to solve.

YMMV.....i'm only speaking about my ears in my system. i'll also add the tubed based systems get less lift; why? their noise floor is higher, and....drum roll.......Tripoint effects mimic some types of tube "breath of life' effects.

my 'guess' is that somehow reaching 'Tripoint' levels of positive effect is beyond amateur hobbyist's abilities. but some of us are physicists and engineers. so anything is possible.

as far as exactly what methods Tripoint or Entreq use for the effects they cause, i don't really know about that.

 

[Cellcbern]

so far i've not found a piece of gear including passive speakers (very slight) that does not get some lift from the Tripoint Troy Signature or Elite; the Entreq a more subtle effect that is not always audible (will every system get the same benefit?). and the cable used matters too. the Tripoint Thor or above being more effective.

can these same 'lifts' be found in some DIY manner? i've played around to some degree with this 'chassis connector' direction...and came up with nothing i could hear. 5 years ago i owned two sets of Tara Labs Grandmaster Evolution XLR and RCA interconnects with dual HFX grounding boxes (over $30k retail each set). it came with a bunch of tiny cables and bits to connect grounds to chassis. they really worked. and when i sold those cables later, i bought more of those cables and used them with my Entreq and speaker towers. whoa! big deal in the bass performance. connecting the chassis had no effects without the HFX boxes, or the Entreq. why? i have no idea.

my system is very, very quiet. so maybe in some systems playing around with grounding reduces noise. in my system that's not an issue to solve.

YMMV.....i'm only speaking about my ears in my system. i'll also add the tubed based systems get less lift; why? their noise floor is higher, and....drum roll.......Tripoint effects mimic some types of tube "breath of life' effects.

my 'guess' is that somehow reaching 'Tripoint' levels of positive effect is beyond amateur hobbyist's abilities. but some of us are physicists and engineers. so anything is possible.

as far as exactly what methods Tripoint or Entreq use for the effects they cause, i don't really know about that.

I see that on their website Tripoint describes both the Troy variants and the Empress as "passive EMI/RFI filters".

 

[Cellcbern]

To refresh everyone's memory, below is the link to the review that sparked my interest in the Groundmaster City device. Since the price was so low compared to the "high end" (e.g., Telos, CAD, Entreq, Nordost) grounding boxes and I hadn't invested in any of them yet, I decided to try this "cheap" solution.

Puritan Audio Labs GroundMaster CITY and RouteMaster system by Terry London

Note that the same reviewer claimed on the Audiogon forum that this cheap solution was superior to the much more expensive Nordost Qkore, and several posters on that forum claimed to have gotten better results from Groundmaster than from Entreq. I have made no comparisons and make no such claims, however if I have the opportunity to do a head to head between my cheap solution and one of the expensive grounding boxes I will.

Audiogon Discussion Forum

My review on the Puritan Audio Labs GroundMaster CITY and RouteMaster grounding system has just gone up on the Stereo Times website. For all the details...

forum.audiogon.com

As I indicated in a previous post, connecting a Groundmaster City device to unused rca ports on my amp and player (signal grounding) yielded an audible improvement in clarity, articulation, and naturalness that was significant enough to make it a keeper in my system. I did not hear the same level of incremental improvement initially from the addition of chassis grounding via a 2nd Groundmaster City. I will listen for several days to see what if any improvement the chassis grounding makes, and report back.

After several days of listening I am not hearing a significant incremental improvement from adding chassis grounding via a 2nd Groundmaster City over and above the signal grounding that I had already implemented. On some recordings there appears to be a slight increase in volume at the same setting, and a very subtle increase in bass articulation, but that's about it. This may be because my Bybee Stealth Power Purifier has filtration on the ground leg, and I have redundant noise filtration. The initial Groundmaster City connected to unused rca inlets on my amp and player resulted in a more than subtle improvement. As I reported previously: "The effect is similar but not as pronounced as what the Lessloss Entropic AC cord and Firewall 640X filters achieve. The improvement manifests as a "lifting of veils" and increase in musicality....". The improvement was significant enough that the addition of one of the expensive grounding boxes (e.g., Nordost, Telos, etc.) falls to the bottom of my list of audio priorities. At its price point I highly recommend the Groundmaster City to those who have not yet tried "grounding". Note that my first post in this series was #67 on 12/21/2021.

 

[Cellcbern]

so far i've not found a piece of gear including passive speakers (very slight) that does not get some lift from the Tripoint Troy Signature or Elite; the Entreq a more subtle effect that is not always audible (will every system get the same benefit?). and the cable used matters too. the Tripoint Thor or above being more effective.

can these same 'lifts' be found in some DIY manner? i've played around to some degree with this 'chassis connector' direction...and came up with nothing i could hear. 5 years ago i owned two sets of Tara Labs Grandmaster Evolution XLR and RCA interconnects with dual HFX grounding boxes (over $30k retail each set). it came with a bunch of tiny cables and bits to connect grounds to chassis. they really worked. and when i sold those cables later, i bought more of those cables and used them with my Entreq and speaker towers. whoa! big deal in the bass performance. connecting the chassis had no effects without the HFX boxes, or the Entreq. why? i have no idea.

my system is very, very quiet. so maybe in some systems playing around with grounding reduces noise. in my system that's not an issue to solve.

YMMV.....i'm only speaking about my ears in my system. i'll also add the tubed based systems get less lift; why? their noise floor is higher, and....drum roll.......Tripoint effects mimic some types of tube "breath of life' effects.

my 'guess' is that somehow reaching 'Tripoint' levels of positive effect is beyond amateur hobbyist's abilities. but some of us are physicists and engineers. so anything is possible.

as far as exactly what methods Tripoint or Entreq use for the effects they cause, i don't really know about that.

Wondered if you'd seen this Mono & Stereo interview with Tripoint founder Miguel Alvarez?

Exclusive interview with Miguel Alvarez - Tripoint Audio

Mono & Stereo High-End Audio Magazine: Magico - Nagra - Tidal Audio - Wilson Audio - MSB - Totaldac - Living Voice - Taiko Audio - Aries Cerat -Thrax

www.monoandstereo.com

He doesn't reveal much about the inner workings of his products as you would expect, but he did mention "magnetic propulsion":

".....Through thorough research, I was able to figure out that the key to music realism was the correct implementation use of magnetic propulsion.....".

Does this imply that magnets play a role (e.g., Like High Fidelity Cables' "magnetic conduction") inside of his various boxes? What do you think?

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...these boxes appear (to me) to drain-off small charges on the cables/sheathing. I have been very skeptical of these boxes because they aren't circuits, per se. The box is an electrical dead-end, in conventional thinking, right?

But some folks with great ears and great systems report net-positive results, across multiple brands.

I have, and like, the Shunyata Omega USB cable. I demo-ed it some months back and liked it enough to buy it.

Recently, I was looking at some Shunyata patents, and those little tubes are filled with silica and other ferro-electric granules, with a small "drain" wire. Not magnetism per se, but manipulating the charges.

Some of the boxes appear to use thin plates of various and varying composition, coiling and stacking them among the granules in the boxes. It seems very system dependent to me, but seems to be a value-add sonically to some very good systems.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Wondered if you'd seen this Mono & Stereo interview with Tripoint founder Miguel Alvarez?

Exclusive interview with Miguel Alvarez - Tripoint Audio

Mono & Stereo High-End Audio Magazine: Magico - Nagra - Tidal Audio - Wilson Audio - MSB - Totaldac - Living Voice - Taiko Audio - Aries Cerat -Thrax

www.monoandstereo.com

He doesn't reveal much about the inner workings of his products as you would expect, but he did mention "magnetic propulsion":

".....Through thorough research, I was able to figure out that the key to music realism was the correct implementation use of magnetic propulsion.....".

Does this imply that magnets play a role (e.g., Like High Fidelity Cables' "magnetic conduction") inside of his various boxes? What do you think?

honestly i'm not a 'how' or 'why' guy, and best leave that to others. 'magnetic conduction'? why not? i know i use to use Tourmaline Guns to reduce static and improve clarity and ease with CD's and Lp's; and adding magnets to those screens boosted the degree of effect. why? have no idea.

whatever Miguel is selling, i'm buying pretty much. but can't make any case other than what i hear.

YMMV, only in my own system context.

 

[LL21]

Since this is about grounding boxes, a post I made on the Robert Koda K160 thread about trialing new Entreq Pluton + Entreq Olympus Tungsten.

Sunday Feb 13th 2022: Robert Koda K160 Amps and new Entreq Pluton & Entreq Olympus Tungsten

"Well, well, well...we had a slight breakthrough this evening. As some may have observed, I decided to go back after 10-12 years and explore where grounding has gotten to in all those years. There are quite a lot of posts under the bridge about my experiences with the then new Tripoint Troy Signature vs the Entreq Silver Tellus at the time (much less expensive but very very good nonetheless)...and my decision at that time to run with Tripoint. For all the reasons of clarity, nuance, air, decay and just pure EASE.

Still, I always remembered that the Entreq had a way with deep house, specifically when there are LOADS of inter-mixed beats and syncopated rhythms...the Entreq always seemed to have a much better way of keeping them perfectly in synch...truly effortless...in a way the Tripoint did not match...and also with FAR greater propulsion (I said so at the time even after making clear my decision to run with Tripoint which we still use today).

Fast forward to the last 5.5 days...we have had the latest Entreq Olympus Infinity Tungsten and Entreq Pluton (3 Olympus Infinity Tungsten's in 1 box)...so a total of 4 Olympus Infinity Tungsten boxes...accompanied by a cadre of their reference Olympus signal cables and reference Peak 4 binding posts.

Day 1-2, it was definitely an upgrade over the Tripoint Troy Signature (now 10 years old)...but [at first] a nice incremental one...but worth a change? Hmmm...

Day 3-5...then along came some improvements...ok, definitely more...perhaps more obvious on certain tracks...but the above reference tracks where bass was not quite as all-out-assault powerful with Koda as Gryphon...not yet that obvious.

...then along came the last 5 hours...smokes! The entire presentation of bass has sharpened, become MUCH more powerful than the Gryphon...and THAT is saying something! And it retains the remarkable integration of an organic whole with the rest of the spectrum...and LOADS more detail that always came with the wonderous Robert Koda monos.

...it's all new right now...but this is now definitive across 6 different albums (soundtracks of Tron, Mission Impossible, Mary Queen of Scots, as well as Mark Isham albums, 1492, etc)...and yes on other test house albums from Fabric.

...perhaps we should wait a bit longer, but if this remains, then it is DEFINITELY about having cake and eating it too. Organic, of a whole, SUPER powerful, an extraordinary way with multiple subtle house electronic rhythms at once...you really hear inter-related beats not just between drum tracks but repeated whispers or keyboard notes which before were just playing in their own time...NOW, they play OFF other beats in the music which was just not understandable (at all) before.

and decay, decay, decay. Such a deft hand with the bass now and yet wackingly great POWER (again, definitely greater than the Gryphon in the house using Tripoint.)

...more to come. Well done Entreq."
_______________________________________________________
UPDATE: Tuesday Feb 15 2022

The system has continued to settle in with smaller incremental improvements which (appear) to have stabilized. We shall see.

Everything above remains the same. More and more tracks being played, and:

- We did an interesting test about how finely balanced these things can be...
- Changed one binding post on the back (8 total across 2 Entreq units)...you could hear between the stock binding post and one several times larger that apparently has more metals in it which make a difference when it comes in contact with the screw of the binding post. The change was NOT positive. Going back after 20 minutes re-settled back into the correct tonal and power balance (at least 'correct' to my personal preference)

- This has led to a desire to trial a different configuration of the latest generation of Entreq Olympus Tungsten products...where there are some clear paths to pursue that 'should' be strongly positive.

- The key is that the system is so finely tuned with these kinds of grounding boxes that actually, I think even if we go with new Entreq (if that is the direction we take) we will still leave the original Tripoint Troy SE doing the chassis ground for the digital while Entreq covers all amplification, signal ground...and the sub (next step in this direction).

- Current thinking is that this could be the optimal balance for our tastes

 

[_Alchemist_]

Maybe my idea that grounding devices to the common ground vs boxes wasn't that stupid.
This is the cable Audionet is giving with their devices to ground them.

Audionet Humboldt Review

The Giant from Berlin – Around a quarter of a century has passed since Audionet came onto the market with the Amp1 power amplifier, which convinced both experts and customers, and a little later conquered the hearts of music lovers with the SAM integrated amplifier. Since then, a lot has...

stereo-magazine.com

Erdungskabel

Erdungskabel Für PRE G2, PRE 1 G3, DNA, DNP und DNC

www.audionet-webshop.de

 

[Cellcbern]

I don't want to challenge you but why not? Isn't the point of the ground to dissipate any voltages that don't belong into the ground?
(and create a voltage difference to activate the differential protection)

And isn't that the point of the grounding boxes as well? To absorb unwanted voltages?

The stated purpose of "grounding" boxes is to drain away "noise" (e.g., EMI/RFI) riding on the ground. Some (e.g., Tripoint, Telos) "drain" it directly into the house ground via the ground connection of a wall socket while others (e.g., Entreq, Nordost Qkore) "drain" it into a box of minerals/metals. Tripoint for example, which Mike Lavigne has said makes the biggest audible improvement, describes their grounding boxes on their website as "EMI/RFI Passive Filtration Device Components".

 

[defride]

Has anyone tried one of the grounding boxes from Signal Ground Solutions? They appear to be the same design as Entreq but relatively inexpensive by comparison.

Have had an SGS1 signature in my system for the past few weeks, very impressed

The story began some years back when I had the opportunity to try a Tripoint Troy SE in my system. I was surprised at the fundamental difference it made, a level of distortion disappeared allowing the system to relax and present in a more natural, realistic manner. It was outside my budget but left an impression.

I dabbled with other systems over the years, Entreq and the like but didn't feel they offered more than tweaks to the sound.

My system has matured over the years and another opportunity arose to try the Troy SE last summer. Again it lifted the system, in particular on the digital side, taking digital from also ran compared to my analog chain to acceptable, enjoyable even. With the Troy in the system I was listening to more digital than I have for years. While outside budget for now I began to contemplate a purchase.

While researching I came across SGS. Modestly priced and at least one favourable comparison with a Tripoint system so I decided to give the 1 signature a try.

Initially, as per Tripoint, I tried chassis grounding, one cable to the dac. There was certainly a difference, greater resolution but perhaps the system seemed a little tipped up, slight emphasis on the higher frequencies but overall a small step in the right direction toward the analogue. This tallied with expectation, I mean it's a vastly less expensive than Tripoint.

There wasn't much to speak of chassis grounding the amp.

SGS were clear that different components react in different ways and it's always worth trying the chassis ground and then signal to see which has the greater effect. Signal ground next, dac first.

Wow, attaching the ground cable to a spare RCA output had an immediate impact. I would contend every bit as much of an effect as running a single ground cable from the dac to the Troy SE (as I remember and of course my system dependent).

Importantly digital now delivers and I now play CDs and stream for pleasure rather than just exploring or playing a disc I don't have on vinyl. The analog is still a step up, a more visceral experience but it benefits from grounding also just not to the same degree as the digital. Given the single connection I use it on the power supply for the phonostage. I notice a greater sense of a vocalists inflexion, more tuneful bass, a slightly more solid sense of presence and energy.

The SGS1 sig is toward the lower tier of their product portfolio, they claim that models further up the range, still modestly priced by comparison to the competition deliver more of the same. One of these days I expect I'll investigate further.

I popped over to UK Paul with the box a couple of weeks back, some of the results were very surprising. Attaching the the ground cable clip to the metal support for a tonearm had an audible effect, there was even a small audible click sound via the speakers as the connection was made.

Perhaps Paul will chime in with his thoughts.

 

[marty]

Wow, attaching the ground cable to a spare RCA output had an immediate impact.

I'm a bit confused. What part of the RCA plug is being attached to the spade end of the ground cable that attaches the the SG box? Is it the (-) or the (+) of the RCA? If it's the (-), then isn't this the same as a chassis ground, assuming the (-) of the RCA is attached to the chassis ground? Thanks in advance.

 

[ozzzy]

It is just the rca ground.
The chassis seems to be more of electrical grounding, while the signal is more related to the interconnect grounding transfer.
There is a difference between chassis and signal ground, at least in sound quality.

ozzy

 

[Cellcbern]

It is just the rca ground.
The chassis seems to be more of electrical grounding, while the signal is more related to the interconnect grounding transfer.
There is a difference between chassis and signal ground, at least in sound quality.

ozzy

Chassis and signal "grounding" are both about draining noise (EMI/RFI) - they are just two different connection points. The relative effectiveness of each varies from component to component. With my system I got a much bigger reduction in noise (subtle glare and haze) and increase in musicality from signal "grounding" (via unused rca inlets) my amp and sacd player than from chassis "grounding" my power conditioner and sacd player's separate power supply, although both resulted in an improvement (I have both in place, each to its own "grounding" device). I've talked to people who had opposite results. One thing I learned that I didn't know before experimenting with grounding is that some components (e.g., my sacd player) are "double insulated" which means that the casework is electrially isolated from the circuitry. Components like this often have a marking on the back which is two small squares - one within the other. Signal grounding via rca is the better option with such a component.

FYI - from Tripoint's announcement/description of their TROY Elite NG 10th Anniversary Limited Edition, which like all of their "grounding" boxes is described as an "EMI/RFI passive filtration device component":

"......The new GROUND CORE modules achieve the highest level of EMI/RFI filtration to date. Every detail has been maximized to eliminate negative resonances and dispense all high frequency noise from the signal path....".

 

[defride]

I'm a bit confused. What part of the RCA plug is being attached to the spade end of the ground cable that attaches the the SG box? Is it the (-) or the (+) of the RCA? If it's the (-), then isn't this the same as a chassis ground, assuming the (-) of the RCA is attached to the chassis ground? Thanks in advance.

Spade attaches to the ground box terminal, mine has a copper clip that attaches to an unused RCA output, I run the DAC balanced so makes this straightforward. While I've attached to the (-) I don't think it matters and didn't notice any difference when I briefly compared to the (+). To compare with chassis ground just unclip and attach the clip to a metal part of the chassis. I'm told the terminations can be made in any manner, clip, spade or female rca.

Pretty sure the first time I had the Troy I compared it chassis v signal and preferred chassis, long time ago, didn't make that compare last summer.

As others have said, which works better is component and system dependent

 

[marty]

Spade attaches to the ground box terminal, mine has a copper clip that attaches to an unused RCA output, I run the DAC balanced so makes this straightforward. While I've attached to the (-) I don't think it matters and didn't notice any difference when I briefly compared to the (+). To compare with chassis ground just unclip and attach the clip to a metal part of the chassis. I'm told the terminations can be made in any manner, clip, spade or female rca.

Pretty sure the first time I had the Troy I compared it chassis v signal and preferred chassis, long time ago, didn't make that compare last summer.

As others have said, which works better is component and system dependent

Thanks. But let me ask- before I hook up the ground box- if there is 0 resistance on my test meter when measuring resistance from the RCA (-) to my chassis ground, and no voltage difference, then may I assume correctly that there shouldn't be/cannot be any sonic difference in connecting to the RCA (-) or the chassis ground? Make sense?

 

[defride]

Thanks. But let me ask- before I hook up the ground box- if there is 0 resistance on my test meter when measuring resistance from the RCA (-) to my chassis ground, and no voltage difference, then may I assume correctly that there shouldn't be/cannot be any sonic difference in connecting to the RCA (-) or the chassis ground? Make sense?

Don't pretend to know what's going on nor what would need to be measured or to what accuracy. It's hard to credit that simply hooking up a cable between a passive device and chassis could make any sort of difference. My experience confirmed by others I've experimented with suggests these systems can make a difference.

As mentioned in a previous post, this passive device had an audible effect simply touching the metal plate a Viv Labs tonearm was placed on. There was a tick via the speakers as the contact was made and a subtle subjective change in the sound of system. Go figure.

I have seen inside a Troy and Entreq, they are very different. Not seen inside the SGS, the maker claimed his work differently when I spoke to him.