Grounding of system

[Speedskater]

The Entreq website says: "Our ground boxes . . . are designed to resemble and work like a bit of Mother Earth . . . where [high frequency voltages] can find peace." That sounds like techno woo-woo for artificial ground, no?

That's technical woo, for sure! Mother Earth acts as a reference plane (but not a great one) for everything in your neighborhood. Neither low frequency nor high frequency voltages have much interest in Mother Earth (and no interest in grounding boxes. These currents only interest is in getting back to their voltage source. What is their voltage source? Why it's that power company transformer down the street.

For this discussion, lets just skip radio broadcast signals in the 1 MHz range and lightning strikes.

 

[rockitman]

The Entreq website says: "Our ground boxes . . . are designed to resemble and work like a bit of Mother Earth . . . where [high frequency voltages] can find peace." That sounds like techno woo-woo for artificial ground, no?

I don't need to defend Entreq. I suggest you try it in your own system and come to your own conclusion.

 

[DaveC]

I am continuing to learn about grounding systems myself, but a proper, real earth ground makes more sense to me than the artificial grounds of Entreq and Tripoint.

The ground boxes probably contain some piezoelectric material which does have the potential to act as a filter, I'd guess a box full of crushed quartz, sand and/or other piezo material with lots of surface area of copper. Lots of companies use piezoelectric filtering in some way. The earth ground is misunderstood and as SS said, it's the electric company's trafo that is the voltage source, not earth... earth its self has more impedance than the power system cables. It's a safety system and not really relevant to normal functioning of an electrical system. Before the safety system was put in place houses had no grounds.

Ground is a reference voltage, and the point of the audio system's grounds is to have this reference voltage exactly the same everywhere in your system, If this is done then there will be less noise because extraneous currents will not flow along the ground paths in the system, such currents produce electromagnetic fields that couple to the signal and the result is noise. And as Amir said, the ground system doesn't have to be connected to ground at all, in vehicles it isn't and their electrical systems work just fine.

This is also why you want to plug your entire system into one ground point, as I explained in the previous link to my sticky post on AudioCircle.

I think if you did a survey of the power distribution systems and component grounding schemes used by people finding big differences using the Entreq/Tripoint/etc. grounding systems you'd find corresponding deficiencies in their audio system grounding. If you have a good power conditioning and distribution system the aftermarket boxes shoudln't make much of a difference. But this is rare as most people feel they need to run multiple 20 amp lines and their components may isolate signal ground, or they may not and if they do there are several common schemes for accomplishing this and they are not all compatible if you want things to be ideal. The industry should have created a regulatory body that agrees on standards for grounding, impedances, connection types, etc... but they are not and the consumer is the one that suffers through having audio systems that are unnecessarily noisy and use old, archaic connectors.

 

[DaveC]

Except that the ground you are talking about is chassis/earth grounding. Entreq grounds the signal. Not the same thing and is beneficial on its own.

Some components do not isolate signal ground at all. If there is ONE component in your system that does not and everything else does than it "ruins" the isolation through the interconnect cables ground wires. There are no agreed on standards for ground isolation making the distinction impossible unless you know if and how each one of your components grounds are isolated, or not as the case may be. This being the case I'd expect the results of using aftermarket grounding to depend on the deficiencies in the audio systems existing grounding system.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I don't need to defend Entreq. I suggest you try it in your own system and come to your own conclusion.

That is true, and completely fair!

 

[BruceD]

Hype / Snake Oil etc call them what you want--I've heard demo with the TriPoint Ground Box inserted THEN out --of a Vinyl System playing Rossini

The difference was not subtle--Pity I could not afford one!--but seriously the improvement in Purity/Spaciousness /etc-- the feeling was, you were in the Hall WITH the Orchestra

Without the TriPoint the Orchestra was merely in your room

Think about it

BruceD

 

[Ron Resnick]

If it improves sound quality then it does. We do not necessarily have to know why it works.

 

[Folsom]

Some breakers work based on sensing ground current, bypassing that isn't a good idea.

If you want to decrease noise by reducing current on the ground, it can be done with a special mixture the rod goes into. Star wiring to your stereo's sockets is a very good idea because they'll skip a lot of noise they could otherwise receive from a daisy chain.

 

[rockitman]

If it improves sound quality then it does. We do not necessarily have to know why it works.

Entreq is the final polish on the system. If you do not have a system in place or in the process...there are much more important things to focus on and dial in first.

 

[Speedskater]

Some breakers work based on sensing ground current, bypassing that isn't a good idea.

What breakers sense Safety Ground/Protective Earth current?

If you want to decrease noise by reducing current on the ground, it can be done with a special mixture the rod goes into. Star wiring to your stereo's sockets is a very good idea because they'll skip a lot of noise they could otherwise receive from a daisy chain.

How would the quality of the ground rod conductivity affect noise current?

 

[Folsom]

It's not the rod, it's a mixture like concrete or something that's around it. I believe there's more elaborate versions done at times. Maybe contacting them could give you information about the limits of reduction in resistance from their product. There's also chem rods too (maybe a bit large for most residences).

The breakers have a host of names, but they're like the receptacle you have in kitchens that's a GFCI. The Wiki has several photos and such.

 

[Speedskater]

It's not the rod, it's a mixture like concrete or something that's around it. I believe there's more elaborate versions done at times. Maybe contacting them could give you information about the limits of reduction in resistance from their product. There's also chem rods too (maybe a bit large for most residences).

It doesn't matter what process they use, it still doesn't affect noise currents.

The breakers have a host of names, but they're like the receptacle you have in kitchens that's a GFCI. The Wiki has several photos and such.

These Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters are often mis-understood.
But GFCI breakers & receptacles don't sense Safety Ground currents (only the Hot & Neutral currents). In fact they are often used to update old two wire systems.

 

[Speedskater]

Is there a link to the above ' audio16 blog' ?

 

[DaveC]

If it improves sound quality then it does. We do not necessarily have to know why it works.

I just said how it works in my previous posts.

 

[microstrip]

Grounding needs of systems are specific to the system, as most equipment does not follow precise grounding and connection standards. It is why,except for safety, where we must obey our local codes, there are many conflicting opinions.

You did not know what were the best power cables for your system before trying, IMHO you will not be able to know what is the best grounding devices before trying.

Again, remember that ground earth and signal ground are different thinks. Electrical codes and most engineers only think about the first .

 

[DaveC]

Grounding needs of systems are specific to the system, as most equipment does not follow precise grounding and connection standards. It is why,except for safety, where we must obey our local codes, there are many conflicting opinions.

You did not know what were the best power cables for your system before trying, IMHO you will not be able to know what is the best grounding devices before trying.

Again, remember that ground earth and signal ground are different thinks. Electrical codes and most engineers only think about the first .

Once again, this is not necessarily true.

And even if there is some isolation attempt made it's only partial and it may not actually be beneficial.

 

[amirm]

The best solution to any grounding issue is to use balanced interconnects. It almost completely sidesteps the effects of earth ground on signal being transmitted.

 

[DaveC]

The best solution to any grounding issue is to use balanced interconnects. It almost completely sidesteps the effects of earth ground on signal being transmitted.

The ground connection in balanced cables is quite audible. The advantages of balanced gear in home audio is hugely overstated and detrimental to musicality as it cancels 2nd order distortion while leaving 3rd untouched.

 

[DaveC]

No,how on earth can a cable cancel harmonics,
Keith.

It's not the cable, it's the way differential receivers work. They also cancel common mode noise which is the big advantage, but 2nd order harmonics are also canceled in the process.

 

[Speedskater]

The ground connection in balanced cables is quite audible. The advantages of balanced gear in home audio is hugely overstated and detrimental to musicality as it cancels 2nd order distortion while leaving 3rd untouched.

Dave, it's almost 2016, these days it's not difficult or expensive to build a balanced interconnect with 3 zeros between the decimal point and the first significant figure in the THD measurement. At that level it doesn't matter what harmonic the distortion is.
To use unbalanced interconnects in a high-end system is an oxymoron.