Harshness – What causes it? What relieves it?

[DaveC]

No carpet will help to decouple the loudspeaker , still points don't decouple .
Keith.

I did not claim it did. I'll repeat myself once so you can understand what I'm saying.

Place a platform on carpet with spikes attached to the bottom of the platform. The spikes go through the carpet and provide a solid surface for the platform to sit on. On this platform you place decoupling/isolation devices, then... on top of the isolation devices, you place the component or speaker. This way the carpet is taken out of the equation and you have a smooth, level, solid surface to work with instead of carpet.

This is the only use for spikes that makes any sense to me at all. rockitmain is absolutely correct that spiking to concrete directly will cause harshness and glare. Many times people think spikes are doing exactly the opposite of what they are really doing, which in most cases is COUPLING.

 

[JackD201]

Sorry i don't understand what you are trying to say?
What is your point?
Keith

Everything matters.

 

[treitz3]

*clears throat*

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ing-with-particular-reference-to-loudspeakers

Tom

 

[DaveC]

*clears throat*

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ing-with-particular-reference-to-loudspeakers

Tom

Great article, the best I've ever read on the subject!

To stay on topic, I just wanted to point out that spiking to concrete causes harshness.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Everything matters.

Amen.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Great article, the best I've ever read on the subject!

To stay on topic, I just wanted to point out that spiking to concrete causes harshness.

I agree with your previous post about a decoupling method used on top of spikes over concrete as the winning approach when possible (not everyone has 6" of concrete to work with).

they way I like to think about it is that it's desirable to change impedance layers.....such as spikes < mass < decoupling < target gear. the spikes ground the gear and the mass loads it to maintain the ground, which then allow whatever decoupling layer/method to operate most optimally which then allows the gear to be as isolated as possible.....which then typically yields ease and eliminates smear and improves focus......and adds bass definition and articulation.....and increases ambient information and frequency extension.......it opens up......and lowers the level of harshness in a system.

if the gear is grounded without the mass or the decoupling layer then you get noise directly into the gear which amplifies any glare or hash which is the worst type of distortion as our ears and body are quite sensitive to it.

all this assumes that the gear is properly designed/assembled to begin with. some 'over-the-top' products have built-in ease and harshness resistance by the way they are built. close inspection of the attention to detail of production reveals some reasons we hear what we hear. some gear needs mass loading on top of the case, and damping added to be optimized.

one must be open-minded when on the trail of harshness elimination.

as Jack said; everything matters.

 

[arnyk]

No carpet will help to decouple the loudspeaker , still points don't decouple .
Keith.

All of this discussion ignores that loudspeakers primarily couple with the air and everything else in the room through the sound that radiates from their drivers, waveguides, and ports. For an experiment, hang a loudspeaker from the ceiling via long pieces of nylon fishing line which decouples it from everything but the air in the room. Hardly makes a difference!

 

[DaveC]

I agree with your previous post about a decoupling method used on top of spikes over concrete as the winning approach when possible (not everyone has 6" of concrete to work with).

they way I like to think about it is that it's desirable to change impedance layers.....such as spikes < mass < decoupling < target gear. the spikes ground the gear and the mass loads it to maintain the ground, which then allow whatever decoupling layer/method to operate most optimally which then allows the gear to be as isolated as possible.....which then typically yields ease and eliminates smear and improves focus......and adds bass definition and articulation.....and increases ambient information and frequency extension.......it opens up......and lowers the level of harshness in a system.

if the gear is grounded without the mass or the decoupling layer then you get noise directly into the gear which amplifies any glare or hash which is the worst type of distortion as our ears and body are quite sensitive to it.

all this assumes that the gear is properly designed/assembled to begin with. some 'over-the-top' products have built-in ease and harshness resistance by the way they are built. close inspection of the attention to detail of production reveals some reasons we hear what we hear. some gear needs mass loading on top of the case, and damping added to be optimized.

one must be open-minded when on the trail of harshness elimination.

as Jack said; everything matters.

Yeah, some gear does account for vibration control. I got a Sony HAP-Z1ES and it has a very heavy duty chassis and nice footers, it weighs around 35 lbs. I was unable to improve on the stock footers with a lot of different devices, the Herbie's iso-cups with quartz balls was the only thing I tried that sounded a little better. Other components have no thought put into this and different footers and weights on top can make a much larger difference.

I will share one of the best decoupling devices I've ever tried. It's cheap and the effect it has is massive. I use them under my subwoofer and speakers, others have told me they make great component stands too, which I have not tried out yet.

http://www.isoacoustics.com/index.php


arnyk, I completely disagree. A spiked loudspeaker will drive the floor and if it's not solid concrete it will resonate to the point it will be very audible and will ratlle all sorts of things in your house along with the bass line. If it is concrete it will sound harsh and glaring. When I put the isoacoustics stands under my subs and speakers it made a huge difference in sympathetic resonances and much less things in the house will resonate as a result. Besides keeping all sorts of things in your listening environment from resonating and making noise, the effect is a much more holographic presentation. My take is decoupling loudspeakers makes a massive difference and should be a basic thing you do for any serious system.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Why on earth would you want to decouple a solid state electronic device?
Keith

really? is that a serious question?

or is this just veiled trolling like your Entreq posts?

 

[rockitman]

really? is that a serious question?

or is this just veiled trolling like your Entreq posts?

amazing isn't it and this guy has an audio sales biz...

 

[DaveC]

Why on earth would you want to decouple a solid state electronic device?
Keith

Try it and see for yourself!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Anybody got any quantifiable data to show why that question is so dumb? You know, a measurable difference in noise, a change in FR between isolated and unisolated solid state components?

Tim

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Anybody got any quantifiable data to show why that question is so dumb? You know, a measurable difference in noise, a change in FR between isolated and unisolated solid state components?

Tim

ahh....the original contrarian to the rescue.

it's so easy to be 'anti'. it takes no effort to post negative comments. or ask for proof.

like I said, veiled trolling.

maybe tell us all the time and effort you spent investigating this subject. why would we even care to answer you since your interest is clearly academic (in it's best light).

 

[microstrip]

Anybody got any quantifiable data to show why that question is so dumb? You know, a measurable difference in noise, a change in FR between isolated and unisolated solid state components?

Tim

Tim,

You are a long time member of WBF and, as me, have participated in the past in several threads about vibration - you even started a thread on it more than three years ago. http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3623-Vibration-isolation-and-electronics Why pretending being a naive guy who is just asking questions?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

if you really want to learn something about decoupling based in science.....here ya go.

http://www.herzan.com/resources/tutorials/sources-of-noise.html

 

[microstrip]

ahh....the original contrarian to the rescue.

it's so easy to be 'anti'. it takes no effort to post negative comments. or ask for proof.

like I said, veiled trolling.

maybe tell us all the time and effort you spent investigating this subject. why would we even care to answer you since your interest is clearly academic (in it's best light).

+1!

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

The subject has veered to Vibration Control ... Hardly unusual.

I sincerely believe in Vibration Control but am very skeptical of special sauces (Quartz things, specialalloys , etc) and its uses on everything. I also do not take manufacturers literature as "proof"of anything, Their main purpose is to sell, not to educate. This said I have not heard or tried anything from Stilppoint or their competitor. Back in the days I had Vibraplanes under my TT and acquired two more . Under the TT the differences were night and day. No golden ears needed. When used under electronics (Burmester) not much I would call dramatic or even noticeable. Under the CD Transport ...nothing I would reliably detect.

I am game to hear what things like the Stillpoint do when placed under speakers. A/B switching will not be easy, we'll try nonetheless . Of course the evaluation will be sighted. We'll see! (pun intended )

 

[microstrip]

(...) When used under electronics (Burmester) not much I would call dramatic or even noticeable. (...)

As foreseen. The manufacturer did the hard work for you, as we would expect from Dieter Burmester:

Vibration-isolating feet with carbon fibre clips for ideal resonance decoupling (Quoted from the 88 Top Line preamplifier)

 

[DaveC]

As foreseen. The manufacturer did the hard work for you, as we would expect from Dieter Burmester:

Vibration-isolating feet with carbon fibre clips for ideal resonance decoupling (Quoted from the 88 Top Line preamplifier)

Sony seems to have put quite a bit of effort into this aspect of chassis and footer design in their solid state music player, the HAP-Z1ES as well.

I guess they must be deluded to think it would be of any benefit?

 

[FrantzM]

As foreseen. The manufacturer did the hard work for you, as we would expect from Dieter Burmester:

Vibration-isolating feet with carbon fibre clips for ideal resonance decoupling (Quoted from the 88 Top Line preamplifier)

Could well have been the case.. I fail to understand how vibration damping would affect solid state to a noticeable degree. I could be wrong keeping an open mind and all that

Happy Holidays!!