Harshness – What causes it? What relieves it?

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,

You are a long time member of WBF and, as me, have participated in the past in several threads about vibration - you even started a thread on it more than three years ago. http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3623-Vibration-isolation-and-electronics Why pretending being a naive guy who is just asking questions?

I did just ask a question. The fact that it has been discussed here before is irrelevant. We travel the same paths repeatedly around here. I will assume, by your indignation, standing in for a response to the question, that you do not have a substantive answer.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I did just ask a question. The fact that it has been discussed here before is irrelevant. We travel the same paths repeatedly around here. I will assume, by your indignation, standing in for a response to the question, that you do not have a substantive answer.

Tim

PS - for the record, this conversation turned here:

Originally Posted by Purite Audio
Why on earth would you want to decouple a solid state electronic device?
Keith

Mike:

really? is that a serious question?

or is this just veiled trolling like your Entreq posts?

If a fellow member's post is so wrong that both his seriousness and his sincerity are questioned, I think it's more than fair to ask for some evidence, beyond opinion, of how he got it so wrong. Is that trolllng? Contrarian? Just seems decent to me, but YMMV. T

 

[Mike Lavigne]

PS - for the record, this conversation turned here:

If a fellow member's post is so wrong that both his seriousness and his sincerity are questioned, I think it's more than fair to ask for some evidence, beyond opinion, of how he got it so wrong. Is that trolllng? Contrarian? Just seems decent to me, but YMMV. T

you are selling innocence and good intentions.

but no one is buying.

 

[Don Hills]

you are selling innocence and good intentions.

but no one is buying.

Taken as a general comment on the high-end audio industry: very true.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Taken as a general comment on the high-end audio industry: very true.

to the degree that Tim embodies the culture/ideals of the high end audio industry (which is to say not even a little)....I agree.

 

[LL21]

http://seelab.ucsd.edu/papers/cschan_gm13.pdf

interesting article on vibration and equipment, particularly hard drives causing server farms to have more error rates or something. The question is since amps are ultimately still generating an analog signal, would the anti-vibration still work because it is NOT the SS bit, but rather the fact that an analog sound signal is being produced by the amp into the speakers? I am not a techie at all...just trying to ask questions of those who would know.

And in my system, with vibration going thru the floorboards, using an Auralex subwoofer platform and now Stillpoints under the Power Conditioner and the Amp made the biggest difference...and the LEAST difference was under the Transport...yeesh...made no sense to me...but i know what i hear. I thought for sure it would be the opposite.

 

[microstrip]

Unfortunately your ears really are the least reliable measuring equipment.
Keith.

WBF has tens of thousands of opinions of its members on what they have found when listening and we can expect we will have many more in the future - are you going to post this comment on every one of such posts?

 

[LL21]

Unfortunately your ears really are the least reliable measuring equipment.
Keith.

Yes, but they are the only ones that enjoy music!

 

[LL21]

On a more serious note, there are just way too many manufacturers/designers who use measurements as only a PART of their design (and who use their ears as the ultimate arbiter), that it definitely aint for a non-techie for me to pretend a few measurements could make a difference. David Wilson (measurements, then by ear by his own admission), the designer of the Marantz 30th Anniversary special edition digital player...actually quoted as saying "you cannot judge digital equipment by its measurements" in Stereophile Magazine, Conrad Johnson (quoted as saying they know that certain things happen in electronics even if they cannot explain WHY they happen despite the theory which says they shouldn't...'capacitance memory' or something)...

...i guess in the end, i have come across maybe 1-2 professionals in person whose technical knowledge was truly comprehensive (former BBC engineer who constructed his own 16-channel audio system using a massive series of digital delay systems he built himself for his own room from recordings he did himself)...but for me , i know what i like to hear, and that works for me.

 

[arnyk]

Why on earth would you want to decouple a solid state electronic device?
Keith

It seems to be all the rage among the placebophile subjectivists.

I've actually measured some response to vibration in SS gear and also interconnects but it is not only way below audibility, it is generally darn tough to measure.

One exception can be interconnects with defectively produced (Triboelectric) insulation, whose vibration response can be not all that hard to measure under ideal conditions. If the insulation picks up a static charge while it is hardening after extrusion it becomes much like an electret microphone.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but opinion is not fact and should not be propagated as such.
Keith.

Keith,

if your intentions are to trash threads based on listening perceptions continually with your agenda then you will be called a troll continually.

if you actually have something to add to the discussion besides being 'anti' or wanting proof then please tell us all about it. an experience that supports your viewpoint as opposed to simply unbridled skepticism. there are plenty of objectivists that pick their spots to let'r rip but mostly respectfully allow listeners to interact. a matter of co-existence in the same space. mostly it works, except when it does not.

if you are just an 'anti' guy then away we go.....

nothing personal intended. we don't have to agree on anything other than this should be fun to some degree.

 

[microstrip]

Keith,

if your intentions are to trash threads based on listening perceptions continually with your agenda then you will be called a troll continually.

if you actually have something to add to the discussion besides being 'anti' or wanting proof then please tell us all about it. an experience that supports your viewpoint as opposed to simply unbridled skepticism. there are plenty of objectivists that pick their spots to let'r rip but mostly respectfully allow listeners to interact. a matter of co-existence in the same space. mostly it works, except when it does not.

if you are just an 'anti' guy then away we go.....

nothing personal intended. we don't have to agree on anything other than this should be fun to some degree.

Well said.
+1!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

So by asking for proof of 'listening perceptions' I am 'trolling' would it be easier for you if everyone just nodded dumbly?
If the sound is different , there must have been a change are you not intrigued to discover what that change might be?
Keith.

you don't get it, do you?

WBF exists due to listeners. if guys like you did what you are doing in this thread all the time you would be left with just you objectivists.....

i have nothing more to say.

 

[arnyk]

if guys like you did what you are doing in this thread all the time you would be left with just you objectivists.....\

Typical placebophile subjectivist conceit - they all seem to believe that objectivists don't listen. In fact the people who do DBTs are dedicated to just listening and not being distracted by non-audible influences.

i have nothing more to say.

One could wish... ;-)

 

[rockitman]

you don't get it, do you?

WBF exists due to listeners. if guys like you did what you are doing in this thread all the time you would be left with just you objectivists.....

i have nothing more to say.

The great irony of the blind objectivists is they pass judgement on gear without having experienced it for themselves. The true definition of Internet forum troll. Looks like he has attracted one his buddies here to. Perhaps moderators should take more action against those that wish only to antagonize rather than offer experienced and respectful opinions in said threads.

 

[LL21]

Surely the object is to achieve better sound quality, you don't think it important that one should be able to distinguish between genuine improvement and snake oil.
Keith.

Keith,

Why are measurements the only way to distinguish between real and fake? In fact, if industry experts who actually design and make this equipment use measurements as only part of what they do to make their equipment, that means to me there are definitely things they are hearing which they are not finding thru simply measurements. And as Atmasphere says, it is not just measurements of the equipment or the room...it is measurements in conjunction with human hearing.

Take for example someone with high frequency hearing loss...that person is going to turn the treble up (not because its ruler flat), but because they need the boost to balance out their own internal hearing issues. That CANNOT be measured by measuring the equipment, nor the room.

That is why listening hearing is equally if not MORE important for many of us.

 

[zztop7]

Please use the comments to demonstrate your own ignorance, unfamiliarity with empirical data and lack of respect for scientific knowledge. Be sure to create straw men and argue against things I have neither said nor implied. If you could repeat previously discredited memes or steer the conversation into irrelevant, off topic discussions, it would be appreciated. Lastly, kindly forgo all civility in your discourse . . . you are, after all, anonymous.

This may apply to some comments :
I would like to give proper credit, but I am not clear who to credit. The statement came off ritholtz.com.

zz.

 

[DaveC]

The great irony of the blind objectivists is they pass judgement on gear without having experienced it for themselves. The true definition of Internet forum troll. Looks like he has attracted one his buddies here to. Perhaps moderators should take more action against those that wish only to antagonize rather than offer experienced and respectful opinions in said threads.

This is absolutely true IMO, and IME without exception. I have offered to send demo cables for people that think they make no difference to try out a lot of times, including once on this forum, and without fail nobody ever takes me up on my offer. Never, not once.

The irony here is, the objectivists that claim to be scientific are doing the least scientific thing possible. I think they should abandon claiming any right to believe in science and just say they are dogmatically holding onto their belief structure no matter what, because that's much closer to the truth. They should stop the "offer measurements" mantra they have going because a great majority of audio designers would admit that while measurements are indispensable, it's not possible to correlate everything we hear with measurements. And in any case, the interpretation of acoustic measurements is largely based on experience and not some strict scientific formula. The fact is, at it's present state, acoustic design is as much art as science. We have a good set of models to get us close, but any good piece of audio equipment is the result of a designer that has some intuition about how acoustics work that go beyond defined models.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

you are selling innocence and good intentions.

but no one is buying.

I'm not selling anything, but I'm not getting personal either. You believe in the isolation of SS electronics, in spite of the lack of supporting evidence. That's not a problem. Personally attacking those who disagree with you is, and would be, even if the evidence was on your side.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The great irony of the blind objectivists is they pass judgement on gear without having experienced it for themselves. The true definition of Internet forum troll. Looks like he has attracted one his buddies here to. Perhaps moderators should take more action against those that wish only to antagonize rather than offer experienced and respectful opinions in said threads.

What the moderators aim to do, and one might wonder where they are at the moment, is keep.the discussions civil, and about the topics being discussed, not the people discussing them. Example: asking if there is evidence, beyond opinion and observation, is discussing the topic. Calling the poster a troll for daring to ask? That's where mods should come in.

Tim