Has anyone moved on from idlers, Garrards??

[bonzo75]

For some this is where a Thorens TD-124 comes in , Idler DNA but with a slightly lighter hand than the 301 , if circumstances allow nice to run both .

One guy did, both all out restores, the Schopper 124 won every time.

There is another report, https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=23054&start=30

“Don’t have a Lenco but do have a Loricrafted 401 and a Schoppered Thorens in other words 2 fully restored turntables. The Thorens 124 with its new bearing and platters has an amazing bass and midrange response and to my ears is superior in most respects to the Garrard…but a lot of money went into the restoration!!

Prior to the restoration, the Garrard had the edge over the Thorens in a vanilla sort of way”

 

[kozzmo]

For some this is where a Thorens TD-124 comes in , Idler DNA but with a slightly lighter hand than the 301 , if circumstances allow nice to run both .

Agreed but for me it has become more of a maintenance issue...There are a lot of moving and perishable parts on an idler...even more so on the 124, What I found with the Garrard after messing with them over many years is when anything on this deck starts going, like say the spring tension on the idler, it can alter the performance greatly. When I was a younger man chasing down mechanical issues was fun and part of the game because the rewards with the Garrard are great....but I am at a point where I just want to press a button and play a record. I actually tried the new technics table, there really isn't a better one button option than that table offers and I was hoping to like it because the DD experience is similar to the idler, however the idler had a lot more meat to the sound and I ultimately couldn't live with the Technics. The perfect option is to have them all!!

 

[jeff1225]

Agreed but for me it has become more of a maintenance issue...There are a lot of moving and perishable parts on an idler...even more so on the 124, What I found with the Garrard after messing with them over many years is when anything on this deck starts going, like say the spring tension on the idler, it can alter the performance greatly. When I was a younger man chasing down mechanical issues was fun and part of the game because the rewards with the Garrard are great....but I am at a point where I just want to press a button and play a record. I actually tried the new technics table, there really isn't a better one button option than that table offers and I was hoping to like it because the DD experience is similar to the idler, however the idler had a lot more meat to the sound and I ultimately couldn't live with the Technics. The perfect option is to have them all!!

I now have a fully tricked out 124 and 401. I love them and couldn’t imagine anything else. But, when I have to rebuild them in a few years, let’s see where my mind is at.

 

[kozzmo]

I now have a fully tricked out 124 and 401. I love them and couldn’t imagine anything else. But, when I have to rebuild them in a few years, let’s see where my mind is at.

Yeah I never thought I'd go back to a belt drive, that's for sure. Also there was an emotional attachment to the Garrard...as stupid as that sounds it was a thing with me for sure. What's interesting and I thought about this last night...is how we can get used to anything. The first few days with the new to me Kuzma left me yearning for the old Garrard....now after several weeks what I am hearing with the Kuzma is now something that I wouldn't want to give up! So the ear and mind are apparently very adaptable!

 

[Wutang-401`]

i was very happy with my garrard 401 that had been reconditioned but i wanted to know where it stood. i worried i was like truman: ignorant of my own ignorance. i had a good arm on it, i had a good cart on the arm, i had a nice SUT. certainly things sounded very good.

herb R from stereophile got me onto it in the sense that when i read his column it reinforces that i want to meddle. to experiment. to try this arm with that cart etc. not excessively. but a bit. get away from the idea that there are perfect bits of equip ent and get more into the complimentary equipment mindset.

i truly loved the garrard and how it responded to each bit of work i did on it. i had wow down to 0.02 rms consistently. speed was pretty good. but it was quite forward and sounded "plastic" in some way. certainly meaty and driving. but what of nuance? and people talk about inner detail belt drives bring.

i really fell in love with the la platine. it seemed like a good table for a person who likes to tinker and who wanted something different to an idler.

now i am very glad i did this. i don't know if the 401 will leave me altogether. but with the la platine and the fr64s i have on it as well as the improved denon 103 cart and a23 sut - i feel like i have a big moment of insight regarding synergy (tonearm with la platine, cart with tonearm, sut with cart). i got a smartractor and did the tonearm install myself.

trying new things in the audio hobby is very rewarding i think. we can learn a lot as we attempt to install and optimise new equipment. it is valuable too to perhaps take a break from the idea of constant improvement and instead enjoy idea of just exploring differences.

having said that i recently made a major error doing a continuity test on my iogold cart. when all of that is put right i look forward to hearing my best effort on the platine with safir, iogold and audio note s9. i think it will be stunning. already i can hear more depth, "see" the performers in a space, and follow all details not just the main character moments.

 

[AudioHR]

Based on your post, you seem satisfied with the 401. You don’t seem like an OCDed audiophile who is looking to compare each attribute of different tables and find something better. The question you are asking is going to solicit a lot of different opinions, and you can spend a fortune validating those opinions, or just pick your random choice of internet stranger, including one who agrees wholeheartedly with you that Garrards are the best.

It also depends on who has restored your TD 124 vs Garrard, as that can influence preference.

Those who restore both Garrards and commonwealth will tell you that the CW is better than Garrards on all fronts, just more of the same.

With belts, there are many belts, you can spend all the way upto 450k on belts (Some poor or unnecessarily premium-ed ones across that range, some with certain attributes spotlighted that you might like). Lots of variations and combos possible there.

If budget is a concern, I wouldn’t change, I would keep the Garrard and save up to add the DaVa field coil cart on it. It would give you one of the highest resolutions possible through an analog front end without losing out on what you like about idlers, especially given that the Dava designer uses both Garrard and Commonwealth.

Personally if I had a lot of money I would buy two tables, the Vyger (belt drive) with the Red Sparrow cart and a restored Commonwealth with the DaVa field coil cart.

If budget was a concern I would stick to Lenco/TD 124/Garrard with a SPU, and with more money add the DaVa which fits on same headshell as the SPU. If you were mostly into rock and amplified, and/or are not into spending on high quality LPs, you don’t need any upgrade beyond this. Even for classical, only the most OCDed need another TT.

Audio Silente himself make the graphite based Blackstone idler which sounds quite better and much higher resolution than his TD 124. I cannot tell you how it compares to belts

Seems I have circled back on this thread. I chose to reply back via bonzo because I thought his reply to the original poster made a lot of sense.

Over the years I have had many belt drives and heard even more. I haven't ever owned one of the $$$$ premium tables but have enjoyed the Linns, Oracles, Thorens and VPIs of the world. Turntables weren't as crazy expensive back in the day, it was easier to explore various tables and arm and cartridge combinations. As bonzo has said there are many belt drive table combinations.

I have also explored DDs. Early on, must have been in the 70s I tried what I think was Dual's first DD the 701? It wasn't very good in my opinion so I tried the Technics SP10 with a SME arm/Shure V15 it was better but I found myself more engaged by a modest Thorens TD 125 Mk 2 with the same arm/ cartridge. Recently a BrinkMann Bardo fell into my hands even though it wasn't really what I thought I wanted. It's a DD and the entry level BrinkMann, in my opinion it's very good and an excellent value. Better than a VPI Avenger belt drive I compared it with. Two friends have the BrinkMann Balance belt drives, one with a BrinkMann arm the other a Graham, these tables are really really good but you know the Bardo isn't shamed.

Somehow I missed the rim drives on my audio journey. It has been my goal to rectify this and explore the whole rim drive with SPU thing. Most of this thread seems to have a European flavour but I live in western Canada so started to see what might be available in North America. I could see there is a market for vintage rim drives especially the Garrard and Thorens but I didn't want to buy an older idler I couldn't be confident in. So it would have to be from someone who specialized in restoring and updating the original into a table that could without compromise hold its own against today's modern tables! Of course I wanted it to look great too, love those wooden plinths.

Although I found a few companies I would put my faith in like Woodsong Audio in Idaho I eventually ended up in a lengthy multiple email dialogue with Christopher Thornton of Artisan Fidelity.They had everything I was looking for and Christopher impressed me with his patience and extremely thorough answers to my many questions. When a preowned Artisan Fidelity Reference Garrard 301 came up I jumped at it. Christopher also helped me with tonearm and cartridge selection and after some further refurbishing to the massive plinth the table arrived in a sturdy crate with the other accessories in separate packages.

To make an already to long story shorter let me just say this table is beautiful and the sound is impressive. I selected an Ortofon Classic to experience the SPU sound and I am loving its dynamic broad brush and natural sound. I am beyond pleased, the setup and consequent sound is much different than the various modern belt design I have heard but I am a convert! Down the road I plan to mount my Hana Red and possibly try a Reid arm to see how resolution and idler coexist.

 

[bonzo75]

bonzo’s reply to the original poster made a lot of sense.

Mods, please make sticky

 

[AudioHR]

Mods, please make sticky

Thanks for the like. Your original post impressed me and got me thinking of where I wanted to go with my system.

Sorry not really sure what your response means, hope it is a good thing, lol?

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks for the like. Your original post impressed me and got me thinking of where I wanted to go with my system.

Sorry not really sure what your response means, hope it is a good thing, lol?

My response was just a fun comment not at you

 

[AudioHR]

My response was just a fun comment not at you

Yeah on further reflection I thought that might be the case! Lol!

Your posts can be abrasive and you are definitely self assured but they are I believe delivered with honest intent.