Having a "You are there " compared to "They are here " system

[Alrainbow]

It is what I could afford but I did put many hours into making all of them new again

 

[morricab]

Does it also depend on the nature of the musical performance? Is girl with guitar and small jazz ensemble more likely to sound like “they are here,” and is large symphony orchestra more likely to sound like “you are there”?

Maybe yes, but maybe not primarily because of the nature of the musical performance, but, rather, because of the way that girl with guitar and small jazz ensembles are recorded versus the way that large symphony orchestra performances are recorded.

Maybe closely-mic’ed recording techniques tend to create “they are here,” and more widely-spaced, large stage recording techniques tend to create “you are there”?

Hi Ron,
You put a solo sax in a church and record it and you will feel (or should feel) very much “you are there”. There is a famous Jan Garbarek album with him and a small singer ensemble that has HUGE space. Think Cowboy Junkies Trinity Sessions as a pop music example. The space and how it is captured should be the driver for the perspective...it’s just that classical music is more often captured with a natural ambience.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

So, you don’t think your current setup is somewhat biased towards “you are there”?

You should try a quieter SET. They don’t have to be biased towards “they are here” although I know many that do.

sure; i think what you say is true about my system being biased somewhat toward the attributes of 'you are there', but only in the sense that it goes to an extreme degree toward being able to fully render large music.....with scale and authority. but i also find it can do intimate/holographic music quite well (i'm fully satisfied).

i have had lower noise floor tube amps in my system such as the Berning 211/845 (not an SET, a ZOTL) which stay in Class A and which take advantage more of my system capabilities. but can't quite do the same magic of the ML3's in the same way. but do more of the 'you are there' part and can deal with more complicated music better (more completely).

http://davidberning.com/products/zh_211_845

maybe SET's exist that can do it all. just not heard it yet in my experience. i think my new dart 468's are quite amazing at intimate music. they don't do everything the ML3's did, but i'm not wanting those trade-offs anyway.

 

[morricab]

sure; i think what you say is true about my system being biased somewhat toward the attributes of 'you are there', but only in the sense that it goes to an extreme degree toward being able to fully render large music.....with scale and authority. but i also find it can do intimate/holographic music quite well (i'm fully satisfied).

i have had lower noise floor tube amps in my system such as the Berning 211/845 (not an SET, a ZOTL) which stay in Class A and which take advantage more of my system capabilities. but can't quite do the same magic of the ML3's in the same way. but do more of the 'you are there' part and can deal with more complicated music better (more completely).

http://davidberning.com/products/zh_211_845

maybe SET's exist that can do it all. just not heard it yet in my experience. i think my new dart 468's are quite amazing at intimate music. they don't do everything the ML3's did, but i'm not wanting those trade-offs anyway.

Yes the Bernings are interesting amps but this amp you linked is push/pull I think. That will give it a significantly different character than a SET. I haven't heard the ML3 outside show conditions so I cannot comment too much about it except I thought it sounded pretty good. The first SETs that I heard that could really do the "you are there" or "they are here" depending on the recording was KR Audio (I reviewed Kronzilla monos for PF many years ago...did things with my Acoustats I didn't think possible at that time). To some degree the NATs also do this well (they are a bit more "they are here" biased though I would say) as did the Ayon Crossfire III (better than the NATs at the "you are there") and the Aries Cerat do both in a very balanced way...a big part of the reason I went with the brand was that they seemed to reveal better than other SETs the features in the recordings that deal with the encoded space.

 

[Exlibris]

Here is my thoughts. An excellent set up system can have it both ways depending on the recording. There are threads already talk about this. I would like to bring up another type of presentation. I call it a giant "crystal ball" type of sound. This is the kind of sound that I hear from so many mega systems with cones that almost has it. The sound in this category is the one that has exceptional resolution portraying unbelievable holographic sound scene with every tiny cues, room boundary, etc. Extremely impressive if you don't think much about it. You hear it as if you looking at a giant crystal ball that magically show you the overall sound in that recording venue. But so far I have not heard a single system with this presentation that does not sound "detached." There is a sense of detachment between you listening in front and the instruments being played although the experience is intoxicating. Sounds from instruments from the crystal ball just do not reach you or radiate to you individually un-homogeneously like live sound...almost like the sound wave from each instrument just die down when it reach the imaginary line between speakers. The presentation also lead you to enjoy the holography rather than the instruments that should be reaching to you and pull you into the performance. So this is a "fake" you-are-there. The you-are-there is when you are fooled into hearing so much venue with all ambient all cues and instruments radiating sound to you...no detachment...not looking at crystal ball. The crystal ball presentation simply cannot do they-are-here because of the detachment.

I might not get my point across well. But I do believe many of us in this forum have experienced this intoxicating crystal ball sound and understand what I am talking about. I am not saying it is not good or inferior to other type sound. In fact I had many memorable moments listening to these systems..very enjoyable. My system cannot portray this kind of holography but can both the you-are-there and they-are-here.

Just some thoughts,
Tang

I've been saying this for years but you put it much more eloquently and precisely than I ever have. When I've tried to express it I mostly just get blank stares. Well done!

 

[DaveC]

Here is my thoughts. An excellent set up system can have it both ways depending on the recording. There are threads already talk about this. I would like to bring up another type of presentation. I call it a giant "crystal ball" type of sound. This is the kind of sound that I hear from so many mega systems with cones that almost has it. The sound in this category is the one that has exceptional resolution portraying unbelievable holographic sound scene with every tiny cues, room boundary, etc. Extremely impressive if you don't think much about it. You hear it as if you looking at a giant crystal ball that magically show you the overall sound in that recording venue. But so far I have not heard a single system with this presentation that does not sound "detached." There is a sense of detachment between you listening in front and the instruments being played although the experience is intoxicating. Sounds from instruments from the crystal ball just do not reach you or radiate to you individually un-homogeneously like live sound...almost like the sound wave from each instrument just die down when it reach the imaginary line between speakers. The presentation also lead you to enjoy the holography rather than the instruments that should be reaching to you and pull you into the performance. So this is a "fake" you-are-there. The you-are-there is when you are fooled into hearing so much venue with all ambient all cues and instruments radiating sound to you...no detachment...not looking at crystal ball. The crystal ball presentation simply cannot do they-are-here because of the detachment.

I might not get my point across well. But I do believe many of us in this forum have experienced this intoxicating crystal ball sound and understand what I am talking about. I am not saying it is not good or inferior to other type sound. In fact I had many memorable moments listening to these systems..very enjoyable. My system cannot portray this kind of holography but can both the you-are-there and they-are-here.

Just some thoughts,
Tang

I agree, I think the difference is a sense of envelopment or immersion is missing. This may happen because of a system or setup issue that keeps the soundstage from expanding and becoming "free" of the speakers and room.

I have found this to be the greatest driver of preference from the testing I've done. While many people cue in on different things and comment about this or that, nearly everyone comments on the sense of immersion. My horns do this well, my conventional speakers are good but the setup isn't quite as ideal for them vs the horns as I don't have a dedicated room for them.

 

[Exlibris]

I agree, I think the difference is a sense of envelopment or immersion is missing. This may happen because of a system or setup issue that keeps the soundstage from expanding and becoming "free" of the speakers and room.

I have found this to be the greatest driver of preference from the testing I've done. While many people cue in on different things and comment about this or that, nearly everyone comments on the sense of immersion. My horns do this well, my conventional speakers are good but the setup isn't quite as ideal for them vs the horns as I don't have a dedicated room for them.

May I ask what horns you are using that provide this experience of immersion?

 

[DaveC]

May I ask what horns you are using that provide this experience of immersion?

DIY... with the main Le Cleach horn covering 400-15,000 Hz, T500 tweeters, 15" woofer. Electronics are all DIY tube except for the source as well.

My main goal is to achieve an immersive, 3-D soundstage as I feel this is the major driver for system preference, and not whatever Toole said.

 

[Exlibris]

DIY... with the main Le Cleach horn covering 400-15,000 Hz, T500 tweeters, 15" woofer. Electronics are all DIY tube except for the source as well.

My main goal is to achieve an immersive, 3-D soundstage as I feel this is the major driver for system preference, and not whatever Toole said.

That's my main goal as well. I didn't achieve it with electrostats, omni-directionals, or corner-loaded box speakers. And I haven't heard it with any of the horns that I've demoed.
I've always assumed that everything has to line up perfectly: room, speakers, electronics, recording. If I understand what you're saying, however, it's primarily speaker-dependant.

 

[DaveC]

That's my main goal as well. I didn't achieve it with electrostats, omni-directionals, or corner-loaded box speakers. And I haven't heard it with any of the horns that I've demoed.
I've always assumed that everything has to line up perfectly: room, speakers, electronics, recording. If I understand what you're saying, however, it's primarily speaker-dependant.

No... I actually think many speakers can do it, my cone n dome 3-ways could do it if the room acoustics were better.

Electronics, cables and AC power all need to be sufficient to achieve enough clarity and resolution, honestly interconnect cables are critical and many will completely bottleneck your system and make it impossible to achieve fully. Noisy AC power can be an issue, and electronics that are not clear enough are also major potential issues.

So I think it's a total system thing, this where the entire system really matters.

 

[Duke LeJeune]

I would like to bring up another type of presentation. I call it a giant "crystal ball" type of sound. This is the kind of sound that I hear from so many mega systems with cones that almost has it. The sound in this category is the one that has exceptional resolution portraying unbelievable holographic sound scene with every tiny cues, room boundary, etc. Extremely impressive if you don't think much about it. You hear it as if you looking at a giant crystal ball that magically show you the overall sound in that recording venue. But so far I have not heard a single system with this presentation that does not sound "detached".... So this is a "fake" you-are-there.

Very creative and vivid description. I've had to mull it over a bit, but I think you are describing what I find lacking about "so many mega systems with cones."

The you-are-there is when you are fooled into hearing so much venue with all ambient all cues and instruments radiating sound to you...no detachment...not looking at crystal ball.

Tell me if I'm understanding the "no detachment" you are describing: It feels like you are hearing actual voices and instruments in a real space even if they are sometimes imperfect, as opposed to the virtually perfect rendition of something that is ultimately unrealistic, which would be the "crystal ball". I think related terms might include "engaging" or "palpable", or maybe "presence". Is that in the ballpark?

Tango, what are your thoughts on what makes the difference between the "crystal ball" presentation and the "no detachment" presentation?

 

[andromedaaudio]

For me only one thing matters .
If you are somehow moved by what the musicians try to convey with their music .

 

[Tango]

It feels like you are hearing actual voices and instruments in a real space even if they are sometimes imperfect, as opposed to the virtually perfect rendition of something that is ultimately unrealistic, which would be the "crystal ball". I think related terms might include "engaging" or "palpable", or maybe "presence". Is that in the ballpark?

Tango, what are your thoughts on what makes the difference between the "crystal ball" presentation and the "no detachment" presentation?

You totally understand what I was trying to describe. To be frank Duke I Probably have not heard enough cones but I have spent much time with the YGs and Magico's. Other cones I have heard maybe a dozen brands but not as extensive as these two. The YG I used to own the Sonja 1.3 and the Magico I heard many models up to Q7MkII becuase my close friend is the dealer. He was also the one who introduced and sold me the Cessaro. The only time I heard the YG broke the crystal ball was not even in my own system but at a show when played that Hugh Masekela' bang bang train song which I hated. That one song only. Once. But Magico and YG owners dealers pls don't get upset with me. I have probably been unfortunate not hearing the right system. I think they are great speakers but just have a very different presentation from what I like to listen everyday. I also find quite a few aspects that these speakers are better than mine.

Duke. I am just a consumer no expert and know nothing in technical. But I think it is the pattern of sound radiation from cones and reflected sound from back wall side wall generated by these speakers that creat this giant crystal ball effect.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Hugh masekela - stimela (Hope) that is .
I have it on tape now ,from acoustic sounds, great music imo .
I heard it yesterday over Harbeth speakers and a whole vintage pioneer class A system., Nagra T audio tape deck .
Plus i heard maria callas on tape ,plus some other rare tapes .
Whenever i will go to an audio show to demonstrate my speakers , i have the software, now

Brg hj

 

[andromedaaudio]

I ve heard this album years ago . on a all zanden / magico v3 system zanden digital, tw acoustic /koetsu coral stone.
I ve heard 2 good magico set up s , this one and magico S5 / octave.
But this album on tape goes furter in conveing the musical message.
The digital and lp sounded quiite alike to my surprise both very good
Although i like the harbeth for their natural presentation.
It s nowwhere near the clean top to bottom performance of my own designs.

 

[marty]

that Hugh Masekela' bang bang train song which I hated. .

Now that made me laugh out loud! It wasn't that you obviously disliked it, but you disliked it in the extreme and are certainly not shy about saying so in such an amusing way.. I'm not sure one can ever be persuaded that the artistry and musicianship on that piece is simply extraordinary so to each, their own. But calling it the 'bang, bang train song" is an instant forum classic! You should get together with Ron, who hates Scheherazade, another beloved classic and compile a list of the "most over-rated audiophile" recordings. My entry on that list would be Cowboy Junkies "Trinity" album, of which I am sure of being the lone audiophile who hated that one. I just wasn't creative enough to give it a catchy name.

 

[andromedaaudio]

The horn systems i ve heard so far were limited in their musical tastes.
Nice for vocals/jazz but limited at the freq extremes

 

[bonzo75]

Now that made me laugh out loud! It wasn't that you obviously disliked it, but you disliked it in the extreme and are certainly not shy about saying so in such an amusing way.. I'm not sure one can ever be persuaded that the artistry and musicianship on that piece is simply extraordinary so to each, their own. But calling it the 'bang, bang train song" is an instant forum classic! You should get together with Ron, who hates Scheherazade, another beloved classic and compile a list of the "most over-rated audiophile" recordings. My entry on that list would be Cowboy Junkies "Trinity" album, of which I am sure of being the lone audiophile who hated that one. I just wasn't creative enough to give it a catchy name.

Scheherazade sounds better every time I hear a good performance of it live. Only Beethoven 9th tires me out more (due to air conducting and moving vigorously in the seat)

 

[andromedaaudio]

I also have , made in japan deep purple, and the doors la woman.
I m a happy audiofile.

Plus the tape project thelonius monk , a mono recording, should be interesting

 

[bonzo75]

The horn systems i ve heard so far were limited in their musical tastes.
Nice for vocals/jazz but limited at the freq extremes

You haven't heard the right ones. They go down to 15 Hz for horn loaded bass and have the best Midbass in audio, better than Mike's or Henk's grands. And the tweeter goes to 40k