Help me w/reservations about taking the R2R tape plunge...

[spiritofmusic]

And that fast I lose my status as one of the "big hitters."

Al M, and DaveyF are "big hitters" too, but more to do w/trying to bash some sense and logic into me, to force me to walk very carefully thru this minefield twds making a considered decision.
Gentlemen, I'll join you tmrw, thanx one and all for making this the most fun time, and yet barely restrained anxiety, I've ever had posting here .
Decisions to buy anything else in audio is child's play in comparison .

 

[Edward Pong]

The absolute key is to have an outboard amp.... Your Technics 1500 with a King Cello or Bottlehead will beat a stock Studer.... the stock Studer was a workhorse recorder, built to perform well - it has an amazing transport mechanism. Many controls which when we bypass them ALWAYS improves the sound... in my machine, the monitoring speaker, all 7.5 ips controls etc. are bypassed. It's electronics are good, but as we all know, if we swap premium parts into it, it will be better, so it's the playback amp that is critical to what you will hear...

the output stages in the recorder is crammed onto a small board.....the King Cello or Bottlehead are dedicated output stages which have much more real estate to resolve more low level detail & dynamics....

Rest assured, what you are considering is totally good & your GF will SMILE when she hears it....

it will sound like nothing you have heard before....the more resolving your output stage is, the more you will be able to hear the differences between tapes...

 

[Steve williams]

it will sound like nothing you have heard before

I agree 100% Ed and it is for this one reason that IMO it is worth the price of admission, even though what DaveyF says is perfectly logical.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I'm afraid that this is another one of these indeterminate and speculative situations which can be resolved only by a direct, side-by-side comparison of components which would be very difficult to arrange. Will or will not the directly connected, extraneous parts eliminated, solid state preamp included UHA, with prosumer transport mechanism, sound better than the heavy-duty transport mechanism of a Studer A80 RC or Ampex ATR-102 with an outboard tube tape preamp?

 

[c1ferrari]

No luck. Most are hard top, and sell in good condition like mine for $30k-$50k.
You can throw $250k at a convertible DS and not secure a sale.
They don't look great w/hood up, brilliant when down.
The standard sedan design still makes me warm inside whenever I approach my Ruby parked on the street.

I looked-up pics and they are too retro cool!
I had a friend with a hard top version, uncertain of the year, which rested in a state of inoperation in his driveway.
Great restoration project at the time. This was back in the seventies.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I looked-up pics and they are too retro cool!
I had a friend with a hard top version, uncertain of the year, which rested in a state of inoperation in his driveway.
Great restoration project at the time. This was back in the seventies.

This is such a common story Sam, not just Citroens, but Jaguars, MGs, and probably in the States, Corvettes, Cadillacs. Etc etc etc.
The other issue is that a lot of classic car enthusiasts buy in pristine condition, or big prices, often both, and then hardly drive them.
Often they just sit in garages, just occasionally brought out, only on a sunny day.
Sounds a lot like tape ownership.
Me? These cars are meant to be DRIVEN!
So DRIVE THEM.
I do, at least 3x/wk
I'm sure we all know, the more a machine is used the better it works. Use it infrequently, and guess what, it will let you down.
My Citroen, 1.5m made btwn 1955-1975, was used by all levels of French society, from executives, to sales guys to doctors. They were used as ambulances and police cars (amazing when the 0-60 time is 15 seconds!).

Actually, the parallels between tape ownership and my Citroen ownership is striking. Would I have spent $15k on her, twice that amount in maintenance over 8 years if I was only going to drive her occasionally? No.
Would I spend £00's on a tape machine and tapes but only play sporadically?......

Sam, I've sent you a PM, I hope you don't mind. If you can send me some words privately, I'd be most grateful.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Guys, I've whittled my final concerns ahead of a choice down to the one thing I didn't think would be the sticking point.
My initial reservations re lack of titles/cost of tapes is behind me. it'll be a treat and something to dip into. Fine on all that.
I can JUST afford eg the £15k wanted for the Studer a820 on Ebay right now, but I cannot countenance such a beast in my room, and I actually only want to consider the classical design of a vertical case w/reels spinning looking right at me.

I'm getting WILDLY diverging opinions. First wave was that ONLY uber Studers must be considered, ideally w/King Cello. Only this will realise the quality upstick over vinyl. Anything like a prosumer Technics 1500, even w/a King Cello is just not up to snuff, and vinyl will retain the edge (I have a VERY well sorted tt).
Then there are the proponents of UHA like Christian and Valin, and others who really don't like those decks. Similarly Steve Hoffman who loves his J Corder, others think it's a joke.

If i can't get to the bottom of this, my mood is dampened.
My deep instinct is that tape is King, but it's got to be just right via an uber Studer otherwise it just doesn't realise it's full potential and vinyl rubs shoulders w/it.
And I'm never going down the uber route.

Now I know this situation is in effect the same as saying the best tt's and cdp's/dacs get you the best sound, and if you won't install a eg big Walker/AF1/NVS etc etc, don't expect to get the very best from vinyl. Sim, if you can't accommodate a eg Vivaldi stack, well your digital will be left behind.
But I really can't stretch logistically to the big Studers, and I just need to know if de facto the conflict is over, and the decision made re my dilemma.

Please, everyone, be as frank as possible, by PM if you want to keep words private.

 

[bonzo75]

Sim, if you can't accommodate a eg Vivaldi stack, well your digital will be left behind.

No, just get a Lampi

 

[bonzo75]

I think Greg baron can do you a cheaper UHA deck than 15k, around 11k USD

 

[Edward Pong]

The Studer A820 was a studio machine with lots of computer control functions you would never use... meaning, do not look for an A820..(I maybe upsetting some people here...) the audio playback cards are similar to the A810..... The A80 has no IC's so more pure. For OUR use, we do not need all the fancy stuff (to go wrong!)

Spend your $$$ on the output stage, you will hear much more for the $$$ from this. The J-Corder, Technics are all fine, 1 consideration... the King Cello is SS, Bottlehead is tubes... which camp are you in??? SS or tube... then there is the Doshi.... much more $$$, tubes... I've not heard, but maybe Steve can give you some comments on this unit...

It's as you said, a Walker TT is better than a lessor TT... but the phono stage is critical.... so it is here with the tape output stage.... a Studer A80 is a better transport... but you need a great tape output stage to realize the Studer's potential...

 

[spiritofmusic]

No, just get a Lampi

Go back to the days when Lampi didn't rule, and SOTA meant eg 4 box DCS, or AN type rigs, or the big Metronome 3 box jobbies.
Many can't justify the floor space, even if c.SOTA. They're sweet w/the one box Lampi solution.

Now, if I can rely on the more compact footprint 1500/King Cello being sufficiennt quality, then there's all to play for...

 

[spiritofmusic]

I think Greg baron can do you a cheaper UHA deck than 15k, around 11k USD

Well, I've heard mixed reports re SQ at his price points, hence the request for people to contact me by PM.

 

[spiritofmusic]

The Studer A820 was a studio machine with lots of computer control functions you would never use... meaning, do not look for an A820..(I maybe upsetting some people here...) the audio playback cards are similar to the A810..... The A80 has no IC's so more pure. For OUR use, we do not need all the fancy stuff (to go wrong!)

Spend your $$$ on the output stage, you will hear much more for the $$$ from this. The J-Corder, Technics are all fine, 1 consideration... the King Cello is SS, Bottlehead is tubes... which camp are you in??? SS or tube... then there is the Doshi.... much more $$$, tubes... I've not heard, but maybe Steve can give you some comments on this unit...

It's as you said, a Walker TT is better than a lessor TT... but the phono stage is critical.... so it is here with the tape output stage.... a Studer A80 is a better transport... but you need a great tape output stage to realize the Studer's potential...

I'm mainly a tubes man, settling on Nat Audio 211s SETs, but in sources, I've never been convinced, so my phono stage and digital are SS.
For me the project I've been offered is the 1500 w/King Cello (K-C), and I'm happy to stay SS thru my sources.
Additionally I've heard the BottleHead is a little way behind the K-C in SQ terms, so no sweat here.
It's good to know you are confident this combination is not a fatally flawed compromise that would scupper the whole point of getting into tape.

Ok, a big vote for Technics 1500/King Cello. Any more colours to be fixed to the choice of deck mast?

 

[Edward Pong]

You should be more than happy IMHO - look forward to hear your comments when you have it up & running!

 

[amirm]

I can JUST afford eg the £15k wanted for the Studer a820 on Ebay right now, but I cannot countenance such a beast in my room, and I actually only want to consider the classical design of a vertical case w/reels spinning looking right at me.

That was a serious consideration for me too before I got into tape. I just did not want to have an industrial looking chest freezer like device sitting in my audio room . So vertical it was. That said, wow and flutter is lower on machines sitting on their back.

 

[microstrip]

The absolute key is to have an outboard amp.... Your Technics 1500 with a King Cello or Bottlehead will beat a stock Studer.... the stock Studer was a workhorse recorder, built to perform well - it has an amazing transport mechanism. Many controls which when we bypass them ALWAYS improves the sound... in my machine, the monitoring speaker, all 7.5 ips controls etc. are bypassed. It's electronics are good, but as we all know, if we swap premium parts into it, it will be better, so it's the playback amp that is critical to what you will hear...

the output stages in the recorder is crammed onto a small board.....the King Cello or Bottlehead are dedicated output stages which have much more real estate to resolve more low level detail & dynamics....

Rest assured, what you are considering is totally good & your GF will SMILE when she hears it....

it will sound like nothing you have heard before....the more resolving your output stage is, the more you will be able to hear the differences between tapes...

I fully agree. The Technics has an excellent tape handling mechanism and its wow and flutter specs are excellent - I can scan and email you the RS1500 HiFiNews review if you are interested in it. My concern about it is due to the relative lack of information about it - we have archives, forums and discussion lists on the Sutders, Otari's, ATRs but almost nothing about the Technics. Also the mechanism seems tricky and delicate. Unfortunately the TapeProject people are no more supporting the excellent mods in the tape path they carried in it.

BTW, I just post my personal feelings because I am assuming your thread will trigger the R2R tape addiction in a few more WBF readers! We need more smiles of listening happiness in this forum!

 

[microstrip]

(...) I can JUST afford eg the £15k wanted for the Studer a820 on Ebay right now, but I cannot countenance such a beast in my room, and I actually only want to consider the classical design of a vertical case w/reels spinning looking right at me.

FYI none of my Studer A80's costed me more than euro 1200.00, including insured shipping to my door! But yes, they are large and heavy beasts, taking them of the palettes without help was not an easy job - I had to build a small ramp!

 

[rockitman]

I'm getting WILDLY diverging opinions. First wave was that ONLY uber Studers must be considered, ideally w/King Cello. Only this will realise the quality upstick over vinyl. Anything like a prosumer Technics 1500, even w/a King Cello is just not up to snuff, and vinyl will retain the edge (I have a VERY well sorted tt).Then there are the proponents of UHA like Christian and Valin, and others who really don't like those decks. Similarly Steve Hoffman who loves his J Corder, others think it's a joke.

A technics 1500 w/nortonics head or flux magnetics if available (it fits the head block) with a king cello wil surpass any vinyl system at any cost. If you go Studer and wire out the head you will need to overhall all the bearings, spooling motors and capacitors..maybe even more stuff. The UHA is at the top of the heap and will sound every bit as good as a restored A820 with outboard electronics.....the transport is not as rigorously built like the Studer is for production environments and you don't need it to be. Its not like you will be playing tape 8 hours a day, every day like studio environment. So with the Studer, you will need to find somebody to service and restore it...Not easy. The UHA has warranty and all the stuff that can break is warrantied and can be readily replaced with new parts. Here is how I see it...Modded 1500 with King Cello gets you in the game for roughly $6kUSD. It will get you 90-95%% of the sound performance of the UHA or a Modded A820 or A80 with outboard preamps.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Thanx Christian, I see you've made the move from the 1500 to the UHA, and retain both.
For me, other than upgrading power cords, interconnects and isolation, this is going to be my end point.
It looks like Nortronic (or Bogen) playback heads, along w/King Cello a necessity.
maybe a consensus giving me the thumbs up on this decision is forming.
Then I'll need a consensus to form between my logical brain and my romantic brain to go ahead finally.

 

[Bruce B]

It looks like Nortronic (or Bogen) playback heads, along w/King Cello a necessity.
maybe a consensus giving me the thumbs up on this decision is forming.

I think this is what Myles is using as well.