Herzan Active Platform on Critical Mass or Harmonic Resolution Shelf and Rack

[Ron Resnick]

The Herzan active isolation platform is a sophisticated and effective active technique to minimize the vibrations reaching the component on the platform.

The Critical Mass Systems and Harmonic Resolution Systems shelves and racks utilize sophisticated and effective passive techniques to minimize the vibrations the components on their shelves and racks.

Of course different components are susceptible to different vibrations, and have different vibration reduction needs. Different rooms and locations and acoustic environments are affected by different vibrations. So it is very difficult, if not impossible, to generalise across different components and across different set-ups and different listening rooms.

Has anyone experimented with combining these active isolation and passive isolation techniques?

Does anyone have any experience placing a Herzan active isolation platform on the shelf of a CMS rack or of an HRS rack?

 

[steve williams]

Does anyone have any experience placing a Herzan active isolation platform on the shelf of a CMS rack or of an HRS rack?

Not sure why Ron. Different ways to approach a common problem.

 

[ddk]

The Herzan active isolation platform is a sophisticated and effective active technique to minimize the vibrations reaching the component on the platform.

The Critical Mass Systems and Harmonic Resolution Systems shelves and racks utilize sophisticated and effective passive techniques to minimize the vibrations the components on their shelves and racks.

Of course different components are susceptible to different vibrations, and have different vibration reduction needs. Different rooms and locations and acoustic environments are affected by different vibrations. So it is very difficult, if not impossible, to generalise across different components and across different set-ups and different listening rooms.

Has anyone experimented with combining these active isolation and passive isolation techniques?

Does anyone have any experience placing a Herzan active isolation platform on the shelf of a CMS rack or of an HRS rack?

Dear Ron,

High end racks like HRS, SRA, CMS etc. are already engineered to deal with such vibrations, it's what you pay their designers for. Herzan is another engineered product with it's own unique principles there's no sense in piggy backing a Herzan on top of highly developed products like CMS, SRA, HRS, etc. when all you need is a solid stable platform for the Herzan. Don't forget that all the tts you're looking at already have very effective and sophisticated isolation built into their design too, there can be too much of a good thing !

david

 

[spiritofmusic]

The advice from both Accurion/Halcyonics and Spiers & Robertson was plain and simple
Their platforms MUST NOT be used w any competing tech
No magnetic pucks/ball bearings like my Symposium rack, no elastomers etc
It MUST only be used w a static solid shelf or rack, and active isolation allowed to do the whole job w no competing "help"
Otherwise a hunting jitter loop could be initiated causing worse sound overall
And the q Ron is why would you want to consider it? Either tech is eye wateringly pricey, spending in effect twice seems like showing off

 

[Mike Lavigne]

there is work now being done to enhance the passive isolation of active devices. active is effective under 1000hz, passive can be better at higher resonance frequencies. of course, active devices now include some passive isolation, this is just more and better passive isolation.

stay tuned for more on this. and this approach would be cohesively engineered as a package.

 

[LL21]

there is work now being done to enhance the passive isolation of active devices. active is effective under 1000hz, passive can be better at higher resonance frequencies. of course, active devices now include some passive isolation, this is just more and better passive isolation.

stay tuned for more on this. and this approach would be cohesively engineered as a package.

interesting...did not appreciate active also had its target frequencies.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Maybe that's why Peter of Symposium Acoustics recommends active isolation w his passive Quantum Signature platform

 

[PeterA]

Not sure why Ron. Different ways to approach a common problem.

Steve, what kind of support is your TechDAS AF1 sitting on? I think they were once available with a custom HRS shelf, but I don't know if that is still the case. Is it on a Critical Mass shelf/rack or something else? A bit Off Topic, but I think some people do combine isolation approaches. My suspended SME is on a Vibraplane, and Christian's AF1 is on a Herzan, which in turn is on a rigid welded rack. There may be an HRS shelf between his AF1 and the Herzan.

Ron, I'm pretty sure Herzan recommends that their active unit be placed only on a rigid frame support/rack for best performance. My Vibraplane is on a DIY extremely rigid wooden rack.

 

[steve williams]

Steve, what kind of support is your TechDAS AF1 sitting on? I think they were once available with a custom HRS shelf, but I don't know if that is still the case. Is it on a Critical Mass shelf/rack or something else? A bit Off Topic, but I think some people do combine isolation approaches. My suspended SME is on a Vibraplane, and Christian's AF1 is on a Herzan, which in turn is on a rigid welded rack. There may be an HRS shelf between his AF1 and the Herzan.

Ron, I'm pretty sure Herzan recommends that their active unit be placed only on a rigid frame support/rack for best performance. My Vibraplane is on a DIY extremely rigid wooden rack.

My AF1 is sitting on a CMS Black Diamond platform. IMO and that of David there is no need for a Herzan on a CMS.

 

[PeterA]

My AF1 is sitting on a CMS Black Diamond platform. IMO and that of David there is no need for a Herzan on a CMS.

I agree with you and David, though my experience with a Herzan is admittedly limited. Do you and David have an opinion about whether or not a component performs better on a CMS or on a Herzan which is placed on a rigid support/rack? Do the two options indeed target vibrations at different frequencies? If so, I would think that the device's effectiveness would depend on the component being isolated as well as the frequencies in the environment that need to be attenuated.

Christian may have a very comprehensive approach by using his Herzan for the lower (sub 1K Hz) frequencies, and the TechDAS's built in air isolation for the higher frequencies.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Just because I open a topic to stimulate discussion it does not mean I am buying everything in sight.

Of course each of those companies wants to consider its own solution to be a complete solution.

Interestingly, Herzan offers a visco-elastic layer option on their stands, which goes under the Herzan machine, to handle vibration above 1,000 Hz.

We all have learned that in any particular situation experimentation and implementation often are more important than the theory.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ron, w'out knowing it, you've answered a vital q for me
Have I ever told you how wonderful you are?

 

[XV-1]

Maybe that's why Peter of Symposium Acoustics recommends active isolation w his passive Quantum Signature platform

That would be because the Symposium platforms provide no isolation.

imo opinion they just change the resonance frequency, which is pleasing to the ear. Act's like most couplers / footers.

I own the Ultra platform and it now sits on the floor under my amp. Well away from my turntable.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, w'out knowing it, you've answered a vital q for me
Have I ever told you how wonderful you are?

I am delighted to be of service, Sir!

 

[spiritofmusic]

XV-1, that's a pretty bold claim, very much the opposite of what Symposium state
No isolation at all?
And you mean you don't rate it under yr tt at all?
I have been considering moving my tt to a dedicated inert table w active isolation shelf
You would rate that over spending a similar sum on Quantum Signature on my pre existing Isis rack?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ron, Peter of Symposium strongly claims active isolation good to below 1Hz, their passive solutions above 1Hz
And that active great at dealing w flr- and air-borne vibrations, but not at internally-generated component-borne vibrations like motor noise, rumble, platter spinning, arm mvts, these latter best served by their passive solutions
And hence both together might be synergistic

 

[bonzo75]

Just because I open a topic to stimulate discussion it does not mean I am buying everything in sight.

Of course each of those companies wants to consider its own solution to be a complete solution.

Interestingly, Herzan offers a visco-elastic layer option on their stands, which goes under the Herzan machine, to handle vibration above 1,000 Hz.

We all have learned that a particular situation and experimentation and implementation often are more important than the theory.

Actually, this is a good policy, opening topics like these. It creates a thread of possibilities and experiences that others can visit later and learn from

 

[ddk]

I agree with you and David, though my experience with a Herzan is admittedly limited. Do you and David have an opinion about whether or not a component performs better on a CMS or on a Herzan which is placed on a rigid support/rack? Do the two options indeed target vibrations at different frequencies? If so, I would think that the device's effectiveness would depend on the component being isolated as well as the frequencies in the environment that need to be attenuated.

Christian may have a very comprehensive approach by using his Herzan for the lower (sub 1K Hz) frequencies, and the TechDAS's built in air isolation for the higher frequencies.

In all honesty Peter I have only heard CMS/HRS/SRA individually never had them side by side for any meaningful direct comparison. Individually I heard nothing wrong with the top models of each brand, either with tts, CD transports or other electronics the improvements were all positive and significant enough to matter when compared to lesser racks and specially compared to silly footers and gizmos like Stillpoints; I can live happily with any of them! I can't speak to what a Herzan or other active platforms including air ones might do for your SME, they don't work with my turntables and introduce undesirable artifacts into the sound which some might actually like. On the other they're great with all my electronics but I can't say that they're more effective than products from those manufacturers which are wonderful. One thing I can say is that they're competing technologies and not complimentary.

david

 

[microstrip]

(...) We all have learned that in any particular situation experimentation and implementation often are more important than the theory.

Particularly when we have conflicting theories - we need isolation to avoid acoustic feedback and coupling to drain the object energy! Crazy hobby!

 

[XV-1]

XV-1, that's a pretty bold claim, very much the opposite of what Symposium state
No isolation at all?
And you mean you don't rate it under yr tt at all?
I have been considering moving my tt to a dedicated inert table w active isolation shelf
You would rate that over spending a similar sum on Quantum Signature on my pre existing Isis rack?

Its not a bold claim - its a fact. Ask Peter at Symposium. He even changed the wording on his website for the Ultra platform when I asked him about what isolation his platform really provided, as it provided zero low frequency isolation.

http://www.symposiumusa.com/ultra.html

I would try and get a demo to see if you are happy spending more $$ on a platform without any scientific proof for isolation. as a solid equipment stand/platform and providing energy absorption they are excellent.


These platforms are not proven scientific isolation devices like the Herzan or Minus K - they are essentially footers which either try to absorb or dissipate energy.