I have a sneeking suspicion that it's the impedance of the drivers - I note 15ohms on the archive website for these units; lower current draw from the electronics, meaning better behaviour from the chain prior to speakers.
Horn Speakers at Munich High End 2016
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Hello Steve
In many ways modern horns and compression drivers are superior to vintage. That said horns are a funny breed and there are many different types that all give a different presentation. Some of the larger vintage systems are truly outstanding however quite a few more have obvious coloration's. So sure there are excellent modern systems that can keep up with vintage horns and in most cases the more modern designs will be superior.
Rob
Hi Rob
As I said I am not an expert in horns.However I have talked to David extensively about this very issue. Hopefully David might offer some thoughts if he is reading this
I think Ron is very correct when he talks about vocals ( and IME particularly female vocals) lacking something on horn systems. IME, horns almost always ( at least all of the ones that I have heard, including the very large Acapella Triolon's and the Avantgarde Trios) elicit some form of the "cupped" hands effect. Another problem that seems evident to me is the 'misstep' between the mids and the bass. When horns are matched with dynamic driver woofers, the speedy horn tends to run away from the slower bass driver. When it comes to dynamics, horns are superb, however, IME, all horn seem to lack certain 'warmth' or for want of a better word...'sophistication' to the sound that a great dynamic driver or electrostatic makes up for in spades. IMHO. Which is why I think they seem to lack when it come to vocals...among other sounds.
No system can reproduce a large orchestral work in a small room on the rather close-up, and thus very wide, scale at which it is usually recorded. It is acoustically impossible.
A perspective closer to the back of the hall is an entirely different thing. Then the sound image of even a large orchestra becomes rather narrow. Even narrower than the typical stereo image of a system in a mid-sized room. Obviously, when you look at the orchestra it will still appear of large proportions. But the actual sound image will be rather narrow, if you close your eyes. And that's what counts since you don't see an orchestra upon reproduction at home either, unless you watch a DVD with sound reproduced over your system.
How much experience with live music do you have, Frank?
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steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I submit to you Davey as I did to Ron, that you need to hear David's system as those Bionor's produced the most realistic male or female vocals I have ever heard. Hence my question to you all yesterday
Steve,
Most probably it is a system approach. David has spent a long time perfecting a system around these speakers, and managed to overcome such problems. Perhaps with the wrong electronics voices would not sound so natural as people who experienced the system refer - and the enthusiastic references are not confined to current audio forums, we can find similar ones in the CES2003 reports.
I know basically zilch about horns, but i certainly can say i think the "system approach" as you call it makes a big difference. Not only in proper and system-wide equipment selection and 'matching', but in setting up and 'truly finetuning the setup' of the system. The latter makes an enormous difference in my experience...
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
you might be right based on what I know about David's system however I too know nothing about horns yet I can tell you when I heard Sinatra or Ella sing it truly gave me goosebumps as I have never such perfect pitch and tone in the human voice as I did then
I agree with most of the negatives mentioned here when it comes to modern horn speakers but IME the issues come from poor design and implementations rather than an inherent flaw of horns as some believe; hence my pivot to vintage speakers over modern ones. Of course room, system and setup play a major role as they do with any system but that's a separate issue. Over the years I've owned many wonderful speakers, dynamic, ribbon, and electrostatic but IME/IMO (for those who demand reaffirmation!) horns are the most natural way to reproduce music.There's a lot of misinformation regarding the so called "vintage" sound as there is with "vinyl" sound, the better & best ones aren't dark, wooly, syrupy, rolled off, colored, thick, etc., etc., etc. and with the right electronics and setup you won't hear any such character, in fact very little discernible character if any at all and you won't be able to age them in that way. In this case I can assure you that none of the valid complaints mentioned in this thread apply, and I'm not only talking about the ultra exotic vintage speakers.
david
!) horns are the most natural way to reproduce music.There's a lot of misinformation regarding the so called "vintage" sound as there is with "vinyl" sound, the better & best ones aren't dark, wooly, syrupy, rolled off, colored, thick, etc., etc., etc. and with the right electronics and setup you won't hear any such character, in fact very little discernible character if any at all and you won't be able to age them in that way. In this case I can assure you that none of the valid complaints mentioned in this thread apply, and I'm not only talking about the ultra exotic vintage speakers.david
I personally think the Trio/bass horn setup is about the most accurate sounding horn system out there. I think it sounds convincingly real to an extent that I have not found in other horn systems, over a wider range of source material genres than others appear to be able to cope with.
It does need huge space to sound that way, though, as per 2011 Munich. Certainly not as per 2014, where they were in a much smaller space.
I think the transparency is at least the equal of any planar magnetic or electrostatic design. Easily better than the Martin Logan Neolith as a speaker system.
For me, I have heard no other horn system sound as convincingly accurate as that setup can.
I know you have heard the Trios, Ron. Maybe I just got lucky with the 2011 setup, but I was truly seriously impressed with it that year, as I have told the bonz. The finest system there that year in my book.
I have to disagree with you on this Rob, if you compare the better and the best compression drivers from 40's to say the 60's no equivalent modern production can touch them sonically. You also need horns and cone drivers to complete the system and that's a bigger problem today than ever, there's no real quality production of either. IMO even the modern ultra exotics of today like those made by Gotto and GIP aren't a match to the older cones.
That said horns are a funny breed and there are many different types that all give a different presentation. Some of the larger vintage systems are truly outstanding however quite a few more have obvious coloration's. So sure there are excellent modern systems that can keep up with vintage horns and in most cases the more modern designs will be superior.
Rob
Can you share some examples of such modern horns and what you're comparing them to?
david
The trios with bass horns are IMO the best of the modern horns and indeed the most complete, getting past the bass integration problems other horns struggle with. They don't even need much of system set up. Plug an Oppo and a 30w amp and it is my second most favored system following the big Apogees. Plug and play. I also think Munich was not a good experience for horn immersion. I have suggested to Ron that he should listen to the WE 16A in Leipzig while he is Europe to see how good horn midrange can sound. Since Ron is more about the midrange vocals, he will probably like the Acapella plasma tweeter (I struggle with their bass). I don't think the small Vivas at Munich or the boxy JMF were anywhere in this league, not to mention that each horn is vastly different from each other. Even the WEs brought in this year were totally different from the 12, 13 and 16A, more than a Logan is from a Wilson. Even the uber priced Vox and Magico ultimates are completely different sounding from any of the above
Well, when the system is in good shape then the width is not a problem - the sound extends well beyond the boundaries of the speakers; that is, much further to the right than the physical location of the right speaker, etc. In every sense, width, height and depth are as big an acoustic space as the musical event was recorded in, I have zero sense of the sound being confined to just the area of where the speakers happen to be. This occurs because the acoustic clues of the space of the recorded material are translated in the brain to create an internal 'image' of that event, and that image can be enormous, depending on what the clues tell your hearing system. Of course, a very high percentage of systems aren't able to convey those cues with sufficient clarity, and the ear/brain then rejects that material as grunge, noise, unpleasantness in the recording - this is why "poor" recordings come to life on highly competent systems, all the acoustic information which doesn't compute to our hearing on lesser rigs now 'fits', and very impressive replay in the subjective sense happens.
As regards live music, plenty - I was a very regular visitor to our Sydney Opera House in years gone by, and to the town hall used prior to that being in use. Not so much these days, I have a deep loathing of sound reinforcement systems, they are nearly always terrible - so keep well from anything where there's a chance of them being used. Periodically I get the chance to experience live acoustic sound from musical instruments, which can be anything from a street busker, who is not using some stupid squawk box to boost the SPLs, to big bands and bagpipe ensembles at street festivals, etc. These are the sort of events I seek out, deliberately, to keep my ear calibrated to what live sound is like - a good habit to get into ...
What happened to the rest of the posts??
Rob
Hi Rob,
I just came to reply to your previous post and see that it's missing, I know that there was a list of drivers and you mentioned DIY 4344 & the 1400 you built. I have had both and agree that there is a JBL house sound specially since both are Greg Timbers designs, though separated by many years. I'll reply to the rest if you put it up again.
david
Agree about Sinatra being an excellent test - I'm reminded of an audio club meet end of year demo, where they pulled out VTL Siegfried amps, top of the line panels (Magneplanars?) - the percussion demo track they played sounded impressive, but my Sinatra CD was, only one word for it, awful - the mediocre rendition of his voice, for the money I was listening to, was quite absurd ...
I have to agree re the VTL's--they always seem to me to be trying to catch up with the music portrayal unfolding--good Amps but too slow to my taste
Sorry YVMV
BruceD
I have to agree re the VTL's--they always seem to me to be trying to catch up with the music portrayal unfolding--good Amps but too slow to my taste
Sorry YVMV
BruceD
I think it is unfair to refer to VTLs as an whole in such general terms - their old tube amplifiers were really "slow", but IMHO modern versions are perhaps even too "fast" for some people. And I have heard great soprano voices with the 7.5 mk3 and Siegfried mk II. As you say YMMV
And yes, lots of posts in this thread are missing!
I have to agree re the VTL's--they always seem to me to be trying to catch up with the music portrayal unfolding--good Amps but too slow to my taste
Sorry YVMV
BruceD
My mileage indeed varies.. Sorry Bruce
but here I go! Goodness gracious ... If there is a better illustration of the audiophile penchant for hyperbole that would be it! I am now a SS person and would gladly say that to my ears now the better Ss do the job for me but in no way would I ever call VTL "slow" as in syrupy as in molasses textured or colored. Not the old VTL not the new . I have had the pleasure to own was the VTL 300 back in the days, late 80's early 90's? and they changed the way I perceived tubes and I was a tube enthusiast then. I had come to accept the lack of bass power, bass defintion and extended treble as "normal", especially compared to the SS competition , namely the krell amps and the Goldmund mimesis, then came the VTL amps. I loved the VTL 500 but couldn't afford it so I waited and got a 300 ... I have heard these on various speakers from Quad ESL 63 to Magnepan 3.5 through Thiel, Vandersteen, Hales Audio and even at one point Aerial, slow wouldn't be something I associate with VTL. I would come with the " slow" qualifier however for one of my favorite amp the CJ-MV75 but never for the early VTL especially the 300 but as you put it MMV...
Back to the subject which is that of Horns speakers in Munich. My current state of mind is that, High End audio is a Luxury Market. Some audiophiles are rediscovering the virtues of horns. The Luxury market is too happy to oblige and we have the extreme things such the $500,000 Living Oympians, the >$500 K Magico Ultimate, Acapella Sphaedrons , etc ... How good are these compared to much less expensive JBL and other horns is an open debate? I would surmise that something like the K2 is as good as these and the Japanese market which has never wanned on horns and particularly on JBL horns would tell you they (JBL) are as good or better than most of those things out there and believe you me it not because of Japanese audiophiles lack of choice or financial means. So this is a case where the often-used open mind needs to be practiced and applied. We have come to a point where a low price is a negative qualifier. We are too happy to jolt the "for its price" qualifier to most "inexpensive" offerings. Some of those offerings in shows such RMAF and AXPONA and T.H.E Show are scantly if at all covered. We flock toward audiophiles darlings such as Magico, Wilson, Rockport but give no attention to the Audio Kinesis, Vittoras, Sarduni, etc ... and strangely not even JBL. We are almost trying to bring these speakers down in many of our reports.., Of course we would say how bad the Wilson xxx speakers sounded in those shows but .. we know it was because of set-up because once properly set-ups they will sound right, frankly they do but so would many of the unknown (horn) speakers in RMAF. Set-ups is a very important aspect of performance. We are willing to invest a lot of time in our darlings but no so much in unknown offerings.. up to 600 (!!??!! WTF!!??) hours is considered normal for some products... To focus on horns, there is something to horns. Their premises is that they are Acoustic transformers they couple the moving elements to air in a way direct-to-air drivers be these cones or panels don't and can't. New techniques of manufacturing as well as designing ( CAD, 3-D printing, CNC, powerful Workstations) has made these better. We should be respectful of the great designs past and learn from them. The potential of new horns being better than the old ones is there and perhaps the reality.
Long winded perhaps, repetition? Of course! We, audiophiles need new air on and in High End Audio. It is getting stale. Re-sassing the same formulas with new names and new (always higher) prices are touted as innovations or sometimes evolution. More of the same with a different name and slightly different sound. We are not evolving the SOTA, we are merely moving it sideways...
