Horns with SS amp instead of Tube (se)!?

[Audiophile Bill]

Have you tried to demo the Bakoon 13r? Very small, easy to ship and demo. For me it was the best I heard with my Mezzo's compared to 4 different SET's. I also demoed a DartZeel integrated which was excellent also. As far as SET's go, my favorite was the LTA MZ3 (1 watt!).

Which SETs did you try, Wil? I know Marc is a fan of Bakoon on the Cessaro Listz.

 

[morricab]

Have you tried to demo the Bakoon 13r? Very small, easy to ship and demo. For me it was the best I heard with my Mezzo's compared to 4 different SET's. I also demoed a DartZeel integrated which was excellent also. As far as SET's go, my favorite was the LTA MZ3 (1 watt!).

Heard the Bakoon amp with Soundkaos speakers once and it was pretty good but not super memorable. They seem to sound quite different from the usual SS amps though. Haven’t been a big fan of what I heard from darTZeel though.

 

[MPS]

Avantgarde duo mezzo xd‘s arrives next week replacing Focal maestro utopia’s currently driven by Levinson 33h’s. Does anyone have experience of Avantgarde with Levinson or similar high powered amps. Thanks

Congratulations,
Duo Mezzo XD is one of the very finest of speakers that I have heard. You should consider installing REW-software (free/donation) and getting a UMIK-1/UMIK-2 (~100-200€) measurement microphone to be able to get full benefit of the DSP function of the speakers. Just to identify where to biggest issues in low frequency range are located if any.
I recently purchased a second hand Burmeister 051 integrated amplifier and quite frankly I'm awed how nice it sounds with my Duo XD's and by nice I mean really nice. Considering the price I paid, it's almost ridiculous. Just goes to show that with great speakers if the amplifier compliments the speaker requirements, no matter the price, the end result is very satisfying.

 

[Hear Here]

Thanks again Peter, that‘s opened the options list. The Benchmark AHB2 is interesting as is the new JBL class G.
AG‘s arrived on Monday, early observations are very tight tuneful bass, but haven’t yet managed to get the sound stage focus that I get with Focal‘s, though I spent a long time getting those right before I was happy. There’s also a hardness at some frequencies, typically vocals, which is more apparent as the volume increases, though I’m thinking this is down the electronics, which were chosen to match the Focal’s.

The Avantgardes will require quite a while to bed in and should sound better after a couple of weeks or so. They are tricky to set up for best sound quality but you'll be rewarded when they are, so keep experimenting with distance between speakers, toe-in and tilt in particular.

Of the dozen amps I bought or borrowed to test with the Duos was the Benchmark AHB2. In fact it was one of the first I tried and bought after reading rave reviews from a AG Trio owner on another forum who had used numerous much more costly amps before the Benchmark. Unfortunately (other readers please cover your ears if you own the Benchmark), I found it drearily dull with the Duos after using relatively basic 845- based SETs for many year. I doubt you'd really like the Benchmark despite its claimed accuracy. I concluded that the Trio owner was obsessed with unwanted noise and liked the BM as it's probably the quietest amp on the market!

I was offered a full-value credit note and bought a used GamuT D200 Mk III next. Although this sounded much better, it's a badly-behaved amp in that it sends a fierce thump to the speakers when powered on or off. This was worryingly powerful with high efficiency speakers and inexcusable in this day and age as a simple relay could have isolated the amp from the speakers during this on / off routine.

Happy to forward by MP my brief notes on other amps tried. Peter

 

[wil]

Which SETs did you try, Wil? I know Marc is a fan of Bakoon on the Cessaro Listz.

I started with the integrated MasterSound 845, then Lampizator GM 70 mono blocks, then Luxman MQ-300b integrated, and finally LTA MZ3. It was a tough choice between the LTA and the Bakoon.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I started with the integrated MasterSound 845, then Lampizator GM 70 mono blocks, then Luxman MQ-300b integrated, and finally LTA MZ3. It was a tough choice between the LTA and the Bakoon.

Did you ever hear any low power DHTs with it like 45, 2a3, px4, px25, at all?

 

[morricab]

I started with the integrated MasterSound 845, then Lampizator GM 70 mono blocks, then Luxman MQ-300b integrated, and finally LTA MZ3. It was a tough choice between the LTA and the Bakoon.

Quite curious about your experiences with the Lsmpizator amps...what didn’t work out there?

 

[Chrispb1]

THose 833s you sold would have worked very well I think.

Yes, I would have liked to try those

 

[Chrispb1]

Hi Chris. I think you’ll be a lot happier with a low noise SET driving your new speakers. I used to own Focal Maestros a long time ago so know them very well.
The AG speakers will be extremely revealing of the electronics and indeed sources.
When you made the change, what specific sonic aspects were you trying to improve on vs your Focal based system?

Hi Bill. I really like the Focal’s but to answer your question; probably like most audiophiles, I’m always looking for the next ”hit”. For my preference, I was seeking to calm an very occasional hot treble without loss of detail, add more clarity in mids and improve the quality of the bass with more depth, texture and tightness.

 

[Chrispb1]

I’ve the Benchmark AHB2 arriving tomorrow.
The 33H ‘s sound lovely and I seriously considered staying with them, but I consider them OTT in the power/current department for the requirements of the AG’s. The romantic in me fancied a low wattage SET, but with so many good reviews of the Benchmark, combined with their practicality, I just have to give it a go.

 

[Chrispb1]

The Avantgardes will require quite a while to bed in and should sound better after a couple of weeks or so. They are tricky to set up for best sound quality but you'll be rewarded when they are, so keep experimenting with distance between speakers, toe-in and tilt in particular.

Of the dozen amps I bought or borrowed to test with the Duos was the Benchmark AHB2. In fact it was one of the first I tried and bought after reading rave reviews from a AG Trio owner on another forum who had used numerous much more costly amps before the Benchmark. Unfortunately (other readers please cover your ears if you own the Benchmark), I found it drearily dull with the Duos after using relatively basic 845- based SETs for many year. I doubt you'd really like the Benchmark despite its claimed accuracy. I concluded that the Trio owner was obsessed with unwanted noise and liked the BM as it's probably the quietest amp on the market!

I was offered a full-value credit note and bought a used GamuT D200 Mk III next. Although this sounded much better, it's a badly-behaved amp in that it sends a fierce thump to the speakers when powered on or off. This was worryingly powerful with high efficiency speakers and inexcusable in this day and age as a simple relay could have isolated the amp from the speakers during this on / off routine.

Happy to forward by MP my brief notes on other amps tried. Peter

Yes, I’ve found them particularly difficult to position and have spent many hours messing about, they don’t play nicely with my room having a very lumpy bass.
However my MiniDSP SHD has given me an insight to how good they can sound. I do however intend to get familiar with REW and utilise the speakers DSP functionality, possibly eliminating the need for the MiniDSP.

Out of interest, relative to listening ear height, what “tilt“ have you found works best and how does it impact the sound tilting forwards and back? Thanks

 

[Hear Here]

I’ve the Benchmark AHB2 arriving tomorrow.
The 33H ‘s sound lovely and I seriously considered staying with them, but I consider them OTT in the power/current department for the requirements of the AG’s. The romantic in me fancied a low wattage SET, but with so many good reviews of the Benchmark, combined with their practicality, I just have to give it a go.

I hope you like the Benchmark amp. I certainly didn't after using SETs for the previous 15 years or so. I found it an amp that you wanted to turn down the volume rather than turn it up - that's the kiss of death as far as I'm concerned! I hope you can return it if not totally happy with it. Having said that, it has some very nice featuers. It is accuate, noise free and has adjustable gain. It was one of a dozen amps I bought or home tried after deciding to switch from SET to SS amplification. Thankfully my dealer took it back for a full-value credit that I exchanged for a used GamuT D200 Mk III.

PS _ The GamuT sounded wonderful but I don't suggest it for high sensitivity speakers as it gives a whopping thump through the speakers each time it's switched on or off.

 

[Folsom]

I thought the AHB2 sounded overly polite.

 

[Hear Here]

Yes, I’ve found them particularly difficult to position and have spent many hours messing about, they don’t play nicely with my room having a very lumpy bass.
However my MiniDSP SHD has given me an insight to how good they can sound. I do however intend to get familiar with REW and utilise the speakers DSP functionality, possibly eliminating the need for the MiniDSP.

Out of interest, relative to listening ear height, what “tilt“ have you found works best and how does it impact the sound tilting forwards and back? Thanks

Hi Chris

Regarding tilt, you'll see in the Manual that you should tilt the Duos forward if necessary so that you can just see the top panel of the enclosure from your seated position. For me, this requires a degree or two of forward tilt but I don't like the look of them tilted. Unfortunately my speakers are placed mid-room and directly in front of one as you enter the room so a tilt looks bad.

I've reduced the height a bit by standing the speakers directly onto the base frame and I've changed the chunky spikes for shallow vibration absorbing feet. This means I don't need to tilt the speakers. However I'm about to change the current feet for IsoAcoustic Gaia Is that will raise them a couple of inches. Once the Gaias are installed (not straight-forward with these speakers) I'll do listening tests - tilted (with top panel visible) vs upright. In fact I'm anticipating (hoping for) bugger-all difference.

You are doing the right thing by measuring your room's acoustics with REW and using these results to flatten the AG's bass response using the XD software. This is far better than using DSP built into full-range amps such as RoomPerfect in Lyngdorf or Dirac Live in NAD amps. Having said that, I've not tackled this job yet and am inclined to get an AG dealer to visit with their own fancy measuring kit and leaving them to adjust the XD software for me. Good luck. Peter

 

[Atmasphere]

You are doing the right thing by measuring your room's acoustics with REW and using these results to flatten the AG's bass response using the XD software.

Standing waves are a common reason why the bass isn't right. You can use room correction if there is reinforcement at a particular frequency but if you have cancellation you won't be able to fix it. The room correction will ask the amp to make more power at that frequency but if its being cancelled you could have a 1000 watts or more and not be able to fix it.

A more elegant approach is to creat a Distributed Bass Array by adding a couple of subs asymetrically placed in the room to break up the standing waves. As long as the additional subs do not have any output above 80Hz or so they will not attract attention to themselves.

 

[ACHiPo]

Standing waves are a common reason why the bass isn't right. You can use room correction if there is reinforcement at a particular frequency but if you have cancellation you won't be able to fix it. The room correction will ask the amp to make more power at that frequency but if its being cancelled you could have a 1000 watts or more and not be able to fix it.

A more elegant approach is to creat a Distributed Bass Array by adding a couple of subs asymetrically placed in the room to break up the standing waves. As long as the additional subs do not have any output above 80Hz or so they will not attract attention to themselves.

+1 I'm a big believer in bass traps and the multiple subwoofer swarm approach.

 

[Atmasphere]

+1 I'm a big believer in bass traps and the multiple subwoofer swarm approach.

The bass traps really do their best work when a DBA like the Swarm is used.

 

[Hear Here]

Standing waves are a common reason why the bass isn't right. You can use room correction if there is reinforcement at a particular frequency but if you have cancellation you won't be able to fix it. The room correction will ask the amp to make more power at that frequency but if its being cancelled you could have a 1000 watts or more and not be able to fix it.

A more elegant approach is to creat a Distributed Bass Array by adding a couple of subs asymetrically placed in the room to break up the standing waves. As long as the additional subs do not have any output above 80Hz or so they will not attract attention to themselves.

Well luckily the Duos have 1000 watts per channel for the bass alone (twin 12" drivers each side) and I doubt more than a quarter of that is used even at high volume. Having to add more subs to a system that already has 2 massive subs seems unattractive! Looking at my own readings using Dirac, I find there's a peak low down then a bit of a trough that I'm sure could be resolved by the XD software. I hope Chris's room can be satisfactority tamed although careful placement of the speakers should reduce his problems before putting software to work. Peter

 

[wil]

Quite curious about your experiences with the Lsmpizator amps...what didn’t work out there?

The were good (Gm70's) , but had an issue (I don't even remember now what it was) so I returned them and replaced with the Luxman 300b.

 

[morricab]

The were good (Gm70's) , but had an issue (I don't even remember now what it was) so I returned them and replaced with the Luxman 300b.

Was the Luxman any good by comparison?