How Do Horn Speakers Get Their Gorgeous Life-like Tonality?

[DaveC]

For a pair of widebanders?
I mean this is for the drivers only?

Great example of pricing for a luxury market! What started out as some modifier Lowthers is now $70k/pair drivers... Not saying they are not excellent, but the pricing is not based on anything but fantasy.

 

[BillK]

I disagree; I've heard the "horn" in every horn-loaded loudspeaker I've listened to.

Perhaps it wasn't obvious or even disagreeable, but it was there.

 

[Robh3606]

I disagree; I've heard the "horn" in every horn-loaded loudspeaker I've listened to.

Perhaps it wasn't obvious or even disagreeable, but it was there.

Just curious but which horns have you listened to?

Rob

 

[BillK]

Klipsch, Avantgarde, JBL Everest, JBL Voice of the Theater, and a variety of others at RMAF over the years.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

Great example of pricing for a luxury market! What started out as some modifier Lowthers is now $70k/pair drivers... Not saying they are not excellent, but the pricing is not based on anything but fantasy.

totally agree......

 

[bonzo75]

I disagree; I've heard the "horn" in every horn-loaded loudspeaker I've listened to.

Perhaps it wasn't obvious or even disagreeable, but it was there.

Proves that you haven't listened to many. It is worse that you think you did. Being aware of one's lack of knowledge should be easy but it's so difficult

 

[BillK]

Proves that you haven't listened to many. It is worse that you think you did. Being aware of one's lack of knowledge should be easy but it's so difficult

Wow, I haven't had to use the "Ignore" function of WBF before, glad they provide one.

 

[bonzo75]

Wow, I haven't had to use the "Ignore" function of WBF before, glad they provide one.

Yes learn less, post more

 

[Robh3606]

Klipsch, Avantgarde, JBL Everest, JBL Voice of the Theater, and a variety of others at RMAF over the years.

What was it you heard that was the tip off? A couple of those systems I could understand but some not so.

Rob

 

[BillK]

For me a trace of "honk" in the upper midrange.

To me it's a little like hearing the cabinet in regular cabinet loudspeakers. If you've lived with only cabinet speakers for most of your life, you don't hear it, but live with something without it, like a planar or a cabinet speaker that does not do it, and it becomes instantly audible.

When I walk through RMAF I can hear it in most rooms with cabinet speakers within a second of entering them; those that don't exhibit it are noticeably special (Vivid and newer Wilson speakers come to mind; I could hear it on the original Sabrina but not on the Sasha and above and I haven't heard the Sabrina X.)

 

[DaveC]

For me a trace of "honk" in the upper midrange.

To me it's a little like hearing the cabinet in regular cabinet loudspeakers. If you've lived with only cabinet speakers for most of your life, you don't hear it, but live with something without it, like a planar or a cabinet speaker that does not do it, and it becomes instantly audible.

When I walk through RMAF I can hear it in most rooms with cabinet speakers within a second of entering them; those that don't exhibit it are noticeably special (Vivid and newer Wilson speakers come to mind; I could hear it on the original Sabrina but not on the Sasha and above and I haven't heard the Sabrina X.)

I agree, it can be audible as horn designs must compromise ideal shape to save on diameter. This can be avoided by using many horns, each covering a frequency range well within the horn's bandwidth to minimize diffraction around the mouth of the horn.

Large multi-way horns are not feasible for most rooms, budgets, time or interest from the owner, etc.

Smaller horns also make compromises to achieve smaller form, such as using innately compromised profiles as well as truncating the horn before it has a full round-over. Where you hear the "honk" depends on the diameter of the horn.

So, there IS audible diffraction around the edge of a horn to some degree in most commercial designs.

OTOH, the most ideal profile (LeCleach) is about DOUBLE the diameter of some commonly used profiles when allowed a full roundover. This introduces quite a few design constraints that may not fit with the overall goals of the designer. OT3rdH, I believe a design using a LeCleach horn profile with roundover can work out very well for some goals and applications... and it does eliminate that issue!

Also, just like cabinet material in a box speaker, horn material is audible. There are some horns made of injection molded plastic, idk, maybe this audible too?

EDIT: I also want to clarify "honk" is a very complex subject with many potential causes, you can read about this for days on diyaudio, search for "HOMs". Honk can come from other things too, but I do think that many non-ideal profiles and lack of roundover are audible.

 

[morricab]

I agree, it can be audible as horn designs must compromise ideal shape to save on diameter. This can be avoided by using many horns, each covering a frequency range well within the horn's bandwidth to minimize diffraction around the mouth of the horn.

Large multi-way horns are not feasible for most rooms, budgets, time or interest from the owner, etc.

Smaller horns also make compromises to achieve smaller form, such as using innately compromised profiles as well as truncating the horn before it has a full round-over. Where you hear the "honk" depends on the diameter of the horn.

So, there IS audible diffraction around the edge of a horn to some degree in most commercial designs.

OTOH, the most ideal profile (LeCleach) is about DOUBLE the diameter of some commonly used profiles when allowed a full roundover. This introduces quite a few design constraints that may not fit with the overall goals of the designer. OT3rdH, I believe a design using a LeCleach horn profile with roundover can work out very well for some goals and applications... and it does eliminate that issue!

Also, just like cabinet material in a box speaker, horn material is audible. There are some horns made of injection molded plastic, idk, maybe this audible too?

EDIT: I also want to clarify "honk" is a very complex subject with many potential causes, you can read about this for days on diyaudio, search for "HOMs". Honk can come from other things too, but I do think that many non-ideal profiles and lack of roundover are audible.

Don’t forget the matching of the horn to the exit angle of the compression driver.

 

[morricab]

For me a trace of "honk" in the upper midrange.

To me it's a little like hearing the cabinet in regular cabinet loudspeakers. If you've lived with only cabinet speakers for most of your life, you don't hear it, but live with something without it, like a planar or a cabinet speaker that does not do it, and it becomes instantly audible.

When I walk through RMAF I can hear it in most rooms with cabinet speakers within a second of entering them; those that don't exhibit it are noticeably special (Vivid and newer Wilson speakers come to mind; I could hear it on the original Sabrina but not on the Sasha and above and I haven't heard the Sabrina X.)

I get you as I was a diehard panel guy for the better part of two decades. No box is definitely better than box coloration...I still largely hear this. For a long time though I had heard where horns are superior even to big panels (and I had some big ones...) but with the drawback of horn coloration. It is possible to find horns with little to no horn coloration and once I heard those that is what I moved to. Most of the classic Altec/JBL designs have some coloration but it is not as bad as people make it out to be (all speakers have their own coloration). But some newer designs have far less because of advances (thanks to computer modelling) in design.
Give some new designs a try and see/hear.

 

[DaveC]

I get you as I was a diehard panel guy for the better part of two decades. No box is definitely better than box coloration...I still largely hear this. For a long time though I had heard where horns are superior even to big panels (and I had some big ones...) but with the drawback of horn coloration. It is possible to find horns with little to no horn coloration and once I heard those that is what I moved to. Most of the classic Altec/JBL designs have some coloration but it is not as bad as people make it out to be (all speakers have their own coloration). But some newer designs have far less because of advances (thanks to computer modelling) in design.
Give some new designs a try and see/hear.

Yes, I think many times the horn coloration is benign, in that it doesn't cause fatigue. So over time we acclimate, sort of like how we acclimate to smells in our environment... eventually we become anosmic until we go somewhere else without the smell for a while. Of course it's not ideal, but nothing ever is when you're dealing with speakers.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

the aerodynamics of the JMLC profiles are suberb and there´s no honk or plunk or echo or any other misbehaviour....
I use full rollback profiles from JMLC270 and up...
TAD 4003 hp at 550 and bandpassed to 2002 at 6K in 2500 horn

 

[microstrip]

(...) No box is definitely better than box coloration..(...)

Yes, this would be a great argument if panels did not have coloration. I like panels a lot, but all I have listened had more coloration when playing challenging real complex music than the Wilson Audio XLF or Magico MPro properly amplified and set up - sorry, for me single instruments and girl on guitar are not relevant. Surely YMMV.

I could open an exception for the Quad ESL 63 if it could play at louder levels and had real bass dynamics. Anyway every panel has its specific coloration - comparing any two side by side shows it very clearly. IMHO what is relevant for this hobby is what is the type of coloration each of us prefers ...

 

[bonzo75]

the aerodynamics of the JMLC profiles are suberb and there´s no honk or plunk or echo or any other misbehaviour....
I use full rollback profiles from JMLC270 and up...
TAD 4003 hp at 550 and bandpassed to 2002 at 6K in 2500 horn

Your highs/mids and the universum's, both using similar horns autotech jmlc, and with beryllium drivers, are the most electostat like I have heard, transparent and see through. No color.

 

[DaveC]

the aerodynamics of the JMLC profiles are suberb and there´s no honk or plunk or echo or any other misbehaviour....
I use full rollback profiles from JMLC270 and up...
TAD 4003 hp at 550 and bandpassed to 2002 at 6K in 2500 horn

The largest issue I have heard with non-ideal horns that my newer JMLC horns with rollback have solved is removing this last bit of distortion from vocals. I think female vocals are the most sensitive to our ear, and I have always heard better clarity from panels and some dynamic speakers vs horns. I also have Pioneer S-1EX, which use the TAD Evolution coax mid/tweeter and these speakers can produce exceptionally clear vocals. So I have always thought clarity of vocals, at least that last little bit, is one compromise you have to make with horns, but the JMLC w/rollback has gotten rid of this and now has clarity that can rival my Pioneers.

 

[bonzo75]

The largest issue I have heard with non-ideal horns that my newer JMLC horns with rollback have solved is removing this last bit of distortion from vocals. I think female vocals are the most sensitive to our ear, and I have always heard better clarity from panels and some dynamic speakers vs horns. I also have Pioneer S-1EX, which use the TAD Evolution coax mid/tweeter and these speakers can produce exceptionally clear vocals. So I have always thought clarity of vocals, at least that last little bit, is one compromise you have to make with horns, but the JMLC w/rollback has gotten rid of this and now has clarity that can rival my Pioneers.

Yes actually we cross posted, the vocals point you make agrees to my electrostat point above

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

on tuesday or wednesday I receive my bronze 4003/JMLC270 adapters and 2002 JMLC2500 horns
I have certain expectations to the importance of the tougher metal and added mass
very exciting....