How do you make audio "cool" to bring in new blood?

[JackD201]

I'm 41. Sometimes I feel 18 and sometimes I feel like I'm 80. I guess that's why it's called middle age. When I was 33 I was just as peeved by the lack of new music played in stores and shows alike save "new audiophile" recordings.

I agree that to make the experience relevant, the music must be relevant too. At shows we're a bit notorious for playing a lot of Electronica, R&B, Rock and Acid Jazz off our laptop drives.

There are a lot of young audiophiles in our local community. Many of them hang out in one of the stores we supply with affordable loudspeakers, after work and sometimes even during lunch breaks as the store is in the central business district. Many who are more into DIY and Vintage restorations hang out in another store we supply a few clicks away. There's a social aspect that makes it cool, same way being in a club or athletic team can make something cool. I don't see this happening with an online business model.

Forums and SN Sites are the next best thing but there's no way it can compare to personal interaction. I pop in randomly to see how everybody is doing and to get a sense of the scene's pulse first hand by taking note of the questions I'm typically bombarded with, a fifty/fifty split between politics and current events and audio related questions. When it comes to video where I am far less competent and far less updated, I'm one the ones hanging out and asking questions.

The really cool shindigs are the ones where a bunch of competing dealers and set up guys decide to all hang out over some beers or even just some Pizzas at any of the dealer's main exhibition spaces. A lot of exchanges on theory takes place followed by experimentation. What makes it cool is that nobody is even thinking about competition because everybody's too busy having fun playing with all the toys on hand.

 

[Old Listener]

It's not "cool" to...

- tell potential audiophiles that all their equipment is crap.
- tell them that the mp3 files they listen to are unlistenable.
- tell them that any equipment they can afford is mid-fi crap.
- tell them that they can't enjoy music unless they use high-end gear.
- tell them that they lack golden ears and good taste if they disagree with the dogma.

Most audiophiles might be polite and not insult newcomers directly in a thread the newcomer started but we'll say all of the above putdowns in other threads. Newcomers can read and draw their own conclusions. It doesn't help that all of the putdowns sound like obvious lies to people who listen to mp3 music files on iPods and enjoy the experience.

To a large segment of the US population,

iPods and iPhones are cool,
earbuds are cool,
mp3 files are cool,
popular music is cool.

Incremental improvements in sound quality at affordable prices might be of interest to a sizable chunk of the iPod users. Most of the people who upgrade from Apple earbuds to good headphones or who upgrade form $ 20 computer speakers to $ 200-500 powered speakers like Audioengines, Swanns or NHT won't call themselves audiophiles and won't feel at home on a forum like this one.

Bill

 

[rsbeck]

These are just some of my thoughts and pet peeves---hope not to offend anyone, but this subject strikes a chord with me.

KeithR

Offended?

Hell, that was one of the best posts I've seen on any audio thread ever.

Keep 'em coming!

 

[audioguy]

These are just some of my thoughts and pet peeves---hope not to offend anyone, but this subject strikes a chord with me.

KeithR

Couldn't agree more and I'm of your fathers generation. Probably the most succinct summary of what is wrong with this hobby I have ever read.

You are the main man!!

 

[MiTT]

Couldn't agree more and I'm of your fathers generation. Probably the most succinct summary of what is wrong with this hobby I have ever read.

You are the main man!!

Couldn't agree more, excellent, well thought out contribution. With regard to the music KiethR cited especially, he's spot on. I'm 55, but my favorite new album last year was Arcade Fire's "Suburbs" and I've always felt that Radiohead's "OK Computer" was the new millennium's "Dark Side of the Moon".

There is no shortage of great new music out there, the problem is a Music Industry that doesn't give a damn about the art over the profit so it caters to the least common denominator.

 

[FrantzM]

Offended?

Hell, that was one of the best posts I've seen on any audio thread ever.

Keep 'em coming!

+ 1...

I also cannot comprehend how people can think that an industry which is not bringing new blood can manage to survive ...

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

These are just some of my thoughts and pet peeves---hope not to offend anyone, but this subject strikes a chord with me.

No offense taken. I have Radiohead, Blue October, The Decemberists, Wilco, Dave Matthews, Swell Season, The Avett Brothers...many young artists and bands along side the 40-year-old jazz in my collection. Looking for a Frank, Elvis, Bob or The Beatles was not meant as a put-down of contemporary rock. Those acts were not just good, they were acts that started movements. They launched genres and fundamentally changed pop culture. They were about much more than music. That hasn't happened in awhile. It may not be able to happen again with the diversity of media available to the public these days. But plenty of great bands have happened. My personal favorite on your short list is Wilco.

The rest of your post I agree with completely. Before the audiophile hobby can really think about attracting new members, it might need to examine how it is actively putting them off, not just through absurd pricing and a press that actively supports it, but through the attitudes of audiophiles. Hyperbole is the native language of audiophile boards, where insignificant, sometimes inaudible differences between precious "high-end" and accessible consumer electronics are often exaggerated way beyond credibility. As Old Listener says, hang with audiophiles and you will be told that the mp3s you listen to every day are "unlistenable," that the really good gear you spent really good money on is mediocre at best, that the recordings you love are poor and that, if you don't hear all of the above, the problem is your equipment or your ears.

You only have to look back a page to be told that iPods suck. Even if that were true, it would be a pretty bad way to win over the guy who thoroughly enjoys his iPod every morning on the train. Is it true? Let's examine it. Measurements taken by a fellow at The Boston Audio Society:

I imported the CBS Records CD-1 into iTunes in Apple Lossless format. After connecting the iPod, the Syncing process placed the CD onto the iPod. The iPod's headphone jack was then connected to my computer-based audio analysis software, SpectraPlus (a PHS product that retails for $295–$1295, depending on selected options). SpectraPlus provided a complete spectral analysis of the iPod's audio signal.

To my surprise, the iPod Touch did very well in the tests. All tests were run on a fully-charged battery, and the iPod's volume control was set to maximum. The audio signal from the iPod fed my desktop computer's E-mu 1616M PCI outboard converter. A 30 kHz low-pass filter was used in the tests.

Maximum Output and Distortion: The maximum output and distortion with no load at 1 kHz was 1.04 dBV rms and 0.009% THD. The numbers did not change for loads between 300 to 600 ohms. The unit is easily able to cope with most headphone impedances because the output impedance approaches the ideal, 0.9 ohms. The S/N ratio was –79.5 dB. At a more likely 0.5 dBV rms output level, the distortion was 0.014% and the S/N was –76 dB. The 2nd through 5th harmonic distortion components never exceeded –75 dB. The IMD was 0.008% using the IM standard 60 and 7,000 Hz tones.

Frequency Response at 0.75 dVB rms output, both channels into 300 ohms: 17–16,000 Hz was flat. Between 18–20 kHz the unit was down 0.1 dB, excellent. The highest THD occurred at 12.5 kHz, –55.5 dB, good. Channel separation was typically –50 dB, OK. The output imbalance between channels never exceeded 0.7 dB at 18 kHz, good.

Square Wave Performance: A small ripple was visible, typical for A/D converters. The ringing occurred at the leading edge of the 1 kHz square wave, very good.

Are these stunning, ground-breaking measurements? Are they "what's best?" No. But I think it's safe to say they don't suck. Wrap those measurements, or worse, up in a $5,000 valve preamp, and the audiophile community would wrap its loving arms around it and declare it musical. Of course audiophiles will say I'm just reading numbers. "Trust your ears," they'll say. But our would-be convert does trust his ears, with his IEMs and his iPod, every morning on the train, and he knows it doesn't suck. So when we say it does, our credibility is shot.

I personally don't think the audiophile hobby as we know it today has much chance of surviving the small cadre of baby boom men who sustain it now. It may be re-invented at some point, but it will look nothing like it does today. YMMV and all that...opinions are like, you know. The thing is, "What's Best" is a journey that begins these days with throwing away the earbuds and buying a good pair of IEMs; there are many roads to find what's best for you, what's best for a specific purpose, etc. But that journey it isn't likely to move an inch if it begins with "you suck."

Tim

 

[Mike Lavigne]

as i mentioned a few posts ago; last Saturday i attended a Headphone Meet. 40 people showed up from the local headphone community. many of these guys were under 25 years old, students, and even a couple still in high school.

i had a Stax set-up which many wanted to try so i interacted with most of them and they love music and appreciate great sound. sure; they like their pop music but once exposed other great sounding music they asked many questions and wrote down my selections.

these young people are where audiophiles will come from. they like great sound and headphones are the easiest way to access that for their life styles. i connected to a few of them and their are plans to visit my room.

if you want to do your part to spread the word on fine audio attend a local headphone meet. they happen in every community regularly. go to Headfi.com and go to the 'local meet' forum.

it will be refreshing to you and maybe you can share what you've been doing with seekers.

i had fun. it was cool. some of my friends asked me why, with my 2-channel system, i bought some high level headphones. it looked like these headphone guys were having fun, and i was right.

 

[audioguy]

MikeL, I'm curious. When do you use your headphone system, given the quality of your two channel rig.

I might use some inexpensive ones when I exercise but only use my good system (Benchmark + Sennheiser) to try to "tune" my room/system.

 

[caesar]

- tell potential audiophiles that all their equipment is crap.
- tell them that the mp3 files they listen to are unlistenable.
- tell them that any equipment they can afford is mid-fi crap.
- tell them that they can't enjoy music unless they use high-end gear.
- tell them that they lack golden ears and good taste if they disagree with the dogma.

Most audiophiles might be polite and not insult newcomers directly in a thread the newcomer started but we'll say all of the above putdowns in other threads. Newcomers can read and draw their own conclusions. It doesn't help that all of the putdowns sound like obvious lies to people who listen to mp3 music files on iPods and enjoy the experience.

Bill

Great post - I agree. If you want to influence someone, you definitely want to make them feel good to bring them to your side.

 

[caesar]

To a large segment of the US population,

iPods and iPhones are cool,
earbuds are cool,
mp3 files are cool,
popular music is cool.

Incremental improvements in sound quality at affordable prices might be of interest to a sizable chunk of the iPod users. Most of the people who upgrade from Apple earbuds to good headphones or who upgrade form $ 20 computer speakers to $ 200-500 powered speakers like Audioengines, Swanns or NHT won't call themselves audiophiles and won't feel at home on a forum like this one.

Bill

Apple is the premier company in the world in delivering the ultimate cusomer experience. And they have allocated a large parto of their stores to headphones - Beats by Dr. Dre, Bose, SHures, etymotics, and B&W's. They also even have B&W Zeppelins as a cool looking, if not better sounding, alternative to computer speakers.

But that's just a start - the key is move from the B&W Zeppelin to a B&W monitor to a full size B&W speaker.

 

[caesar]

+ 1...

I also cannot comprehend how people can think that an industry which is not bringing new blood can manage to survive ...

Frantz, I am guessing there is no industry association in high end audio, but just a bunch of mom and pop shops and fairly small companies. As a result, we need creative marketing innovation from these small companies and entreprenurial dealers for them to survive and for the industry to survive.

 

[caesar]

I'm 33---so am the generation manufacturers want to corral and I am the only person I know my age (on Wall Street or buyside or wherever) that is an audiophile and have been so for 10 years.

One big problem is the abundance of media to take our time. Social networking, blu ray, ipods, itouches, smartphones, online activity---all takes place of music.

For those who are waiting for the next Elvis or Frank or Floyd---- Radiohead is at least as good as Pink Floyd ever was---there is a professor at Northwestern in the music department who wanted to teach a course on them. You might pick up the latest Arcade Fire for someone who could be the next one. Wilco is another extremely talented band---how about Muse (they are ridiculously overseas popular)? Dave Mathews is still selling out concerts for as long as the Grateful Dead were. Equivocating my generation to Biever and Lady Gaga is extremely ignorant, at best. I'm sure all of us can point out shitty 60s, 70s, or 80s rock/pop. The Monkees, Kansas, and Tiffany to name a few??

I find older audiophiles in general don't care about new music. When I used to walk into audiophile shops and ask for rock---the Eagles was put on. At shows we get Diana Krall and the ilk. Come on guys! One of my older audiophile friends in his 50s doesn't have a cd with a rock band from the 2000s---but loads up on every Steely Dan or whatever 70s bands that is extinct. I forward him new stuff all the time but have never heard him buy a copy. Take a pause from buying Steve Hoffman audiophile approved rock and go out and hear some new bands. Even explore some electro stuff (Hotchip, Thievery Corp, Air, Gotan Project etc) while you are at it---this is what younger folks are listening to a lot of these days.

Audiophile pricing has gotten extreme which has turned off people to this hobby. All other technology comes down in price, but audiophile pricing has gone stratospheric in recent years. I used to be able and go buy a great pair of speakers for 5k-10k. Now that is more like 25k---and mags like TAS focus on 60k BS cables, 4k "tweaks," and other nonsense instead of things that younger audiophiles would care about stuff like music servers and to a more limited extent, vinyl (without 60k phono stages). If you are a young guy and you see a bunch of 40k speakers and amps, you feel the price of admission is only for the "crazies." On the other side, the new writer for Stereophile Steven Meijas (sp?) seems like the kind of guy we need to see more of---his new "Entry Level" column is extremely well written and relevant to younger folks just getting started!

These are just some of my thoughts and pet peeves---hope not to offend anyone, but this subject strikes a chord with me.

KeithR

KeithR,

You make good points. But in addition to pop music, there is also jazz and classical. Additionally, people watch movies with crappy home theater speakers. I think the key is to expose as many people as possible to good sound.

 

[caesar]

i was at a Headphone meet this weekend. there were 40 people there and maybe double that amount of different headphones, amps and sources.

i had both my HD-800/Woo 6SE and Stax O2/SRM-717 set-ups using my Playback Designs MPS-5 as the source for both. almost everyone wanted to listen to the Stax, and many had i-Pods/i-Touchs to compare to other sources. so i had a chance to hear many i-pods thru various headphones, some with separate amps and some directly out of the i-Pod or i-Touch. a few people plugged their i-pod or i-Touch into my amps and then we listened compared directly to the Playbacks.

on one hand music is music and is worthy on any level; but in that environment it's easy to quickly hear the limitations of an i-Pod and i-Touch compared to good, better, and best alternatives. there is quite a large gap from bottom to top.

i'll add that short direct comparisons to better sources; an i-Touch into good headphones can sound great. there is nothing 'bad' about it.

To me, listening to headphones are no where near the experience of a good speaker system. It is music listening of last resort. If your cd player sounds great through headphones, imagine if you could demo your home system to the entire headphones crowd. Some may think it's ridiculous and expensive, but some may be blown away.

 

[caesar]

I think audio is already cool.

Popular is a different Rubic's Cube.

I tell my kids, "don't try to be popular, just be yourself and see who is drawn to you."

I would tell audio the same thing.

Trying to be cool is the antithesis of cool.

Rsbeck,

I am not sure I agree with you. I think there are vast differences, as well as many similarities, between marketing products and ideas and human relations. From a business perspective you are committing the "better mouse trap" fallacy. It is attributed to Ralph W. Emerson and his famous quote: “Build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door.” The problem is that it just doesn't hold water in the business world. Just talk to any engineer out there. They will tell you that they have a superior product. But for them to sell it, they need to tell you about it and convince you to purchase it instead of someone else's product.

Audio is cool. Entrepreneurs who run their audio companies and dealers just need to make people more aware of them and the cool products and experiences they have to offer.

 

[caesar]

Here's my serious answer: Civilians don't listen to gear, they just listen to music. Are they capable of appreciating really good reproduction? Sure. But to get them away from their flat screens and blu rays and surround sound, to get them to sit down and really listen to music, it's going to take something compelling in music, not in speakers or amplification. ...
It has been a long, long time. It wasn't the Bee Gees or Michael Jackson. God knows it's not Justin Bieber. We're still waiting.

Tim

Sounds like a modern version of a quote from Allan Bloom's Closing of the American Mind. I remember reading it many years ago, and him bitching about how his super smart students would mindlessly listen to pop music through their Sony Walkmen.

 

[amirm]

I find older audiophiles in general don't care about new music. When I used to walk into audiophile shops and ask for rock---the Eagles was put on.

If there is one thing that questions whether I am part of the audiophile group is this. What's with all this old music? Is there a belief that no new music is good or audiophile quality? I sat through the Wilson demos at CES and could barely stand hearing old music that I had no clue about.

Recently an audio store put out an audiophile event. I did not go there but they post the list of albums they played. So I get interested to get copies and hear them on my system. I go on Amazon, and other than one, I could not find any of them for sale there! I mean what's with listening to such obscure stuff that even the world's largest music retailer doesn't carry it in any format?

It is almost a badge of honor I suspect if you are a high-end equipment maker to play such material.

For our business, I took my music library and made a playlist for demo. Other than maybe one or two tracks, everything is from the last two decades and most less than 10 years old. They are really good sounding titles that to me, are also nice representation of modern music. So far, it is working but I keep thinking I should also add some ragged edge titles to it as to keep up with the masses .

 

[garylkoh]

I find older audiophiles in general don't care about new music. When I used to walk into audiophile shops and ask for rock---the Eagles was put on. At shows we get Diana Krall and the ilk. Come on guys! One of my older audiophile friends in his 50s doesn't have a cd with a rock band from the 2000s---but loads up on every Steely Dan or whatever 70s bands that is extinct. I forward him new stuff all the time but have never heard him buy a copy. Take a pause from buying Steve Hoffman audiophile approved rock and go out and hear some new bands. Even explore some electro stuff (Hotchip, Thievery Corp, Air, Gotan Project etc) while you are at it---this is what younger folks are listening to a lot of these days.

Keith, I would really, really appreciate it if you would start a thread in the Music forum and introduce some of your music. I haven't heard of Hot Chip, Air or the Gotan Project. I've got some Thievery Corp stuff though....

I'm 50, but my wife's not much older than you are and the new music I get I get from her. However, a lot of the new music is just LOUD. The recording and mastering engineers turn the volume up to 11, and all you get is compressed crap. From this forum, I've gotten great recommendations in Jazz, Progressive Rock, and Classical, but nothing really new.

A couple of days ago, we had a small party at the factory because we have a pair of the Genesis 2.2's being run-in prior to delivery and I brought out Infected Mushroom, Sphongle, Cornelious, and Thievery Corp. But I'm always looking for something cool to demo with.

For us old folks, here's the Lebanese Blond:

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

It is almost a badge of honor I suspect if you are a high-end equipment maker to play such material.

I suspect a bigger part of it is using material that shows their equipment off well. It can be difficult to find modern recordings that don't at least have some of the dynamics compressed out of them. It's not at all hard, however, to find young artists of great merit. New artists mellow enough for old listeners I've discovered in the last couple of years include Ray LaMontagne, Madeleine Peyroux, Glen Hansard, the Be Good Tanyas, Bright Eyes...there are many more, some not so mellow, but I'll save them for Keith's thread in the music forum.

Tim

 

[amirm]

As I said, I have a playlist of 30-50 songs, almost none of which are old music. It has the new Sade and Peter Gabriel albums. Rickie Lee Jones. The top song in our playlist is from Allan Taylor (Colour to the Moon) which is circa 2000. Exceptionally clean guitar strings that shows off equipment very well and with his voice being similar to Dire Straits, rather familiar.