How do you make audio "cool" to bring in new blood?

[audioguy]

Lebanese Blonde Thievery Corporation


Love the music (and the blonde is pretty hot as well) but until I listened to this cut, had never heard of the group.

Are there any really good and independent magazines (e or real) that do nothing but rate new music both musically and sonically (and provide snippets of the sounds)?

 

[Old Listener]

taste

If there is one thing that questions whether I am part of the audiophile group is this. What's with all this old music? Is there a belief that no new music is good or audiophile quality? I sat through the Wilson demos at CES and could barely stand hearing old music that I had no clue about.

I'm one of those old guys who listens mostly to "old" music. It just my choice. I don't describe my music as superior to anybody's else's choices.

I've read hundreds of posts like Amir's in audiophile forums. There is an asymmetry in them that I find striking and somewhat alienating. I would caricature the two themes are

- Why do I have to listen to the music these old farts/mindless youth listen to? It has no value.

- Why can't everybody listen to the great stuff I like? Those people need to get better taste (mine).

I don't think that enforcing a conformity in taste is necessary today. The direction of music in the last 60 years has been toward segmenting the market. As a consumer, I can pick what I want to listen to. Finding common likes and dislikes is a nice way to interact with friends but it is done against a background of personal choice. Audio technology has made it easy for each person to have his own listening experience. All those people walking around with an iPod and earbuds can make their own choices about what to listen to.

As a store owner, Amir may need to have a wide variety of music available to demonstrate his product lines. Given my taste for "old" music, I might consider his choices to be rather limited. However, it doesn't matter as much as it used to. With computer based audio, it is quite easy to take a sample of your music on a flash drive or an iPod when you (and a friend perhaps) go to a high-end audio store.

Of course, that model is about a one or two audiophiles listening in a store. Audiophiles may think in terms of a communal listening experience in a store or at a audiophile show, but I doubt that teens and young adults are as strongly wedded to listening to recorded music in a group. A headphone users' meetup event seems a modern alternative to the sort of shows (older) audiophiles prefer.

Amir, I did not intend to offend you or anyone else.

Bill

 

[Steve williams]

Hi Bill
from one old fart to another I understand where you are coming from. Had it not been for my kids and my having instilled the love of music into them I can honestly say that I would probably still be listening to just the "old music"

Heck I am even going to see Lady Gaga March 22 at Oracle Arena. Will I be out of place or what

 

[amirm]

I'm one of those old guys who listens mostly to "old" music. It just my choice. I don't describe my music as superior to anybody's else's choices.
Bill

I want to make sure we don't go down a personal route here . I thought the discussion was about the collective taste of the audiophile community and whether that is a barrier for others to appreciate. Even though I will be 51 this year, I chimed in saying that I think there is merit in that. I don't find audiophile sessions that consists entirely of old music fun. So to the extent I can be someone here representing the other group, the point made in the post rings true.

Nothing here is trying to force their music choices. But rather, if we want to grow the market, we need to expose people listening to our systems to newer music. Of course we could say we don't care in which case, this thread is moot .

 

[Steve williams]

Amir

do you want to come see Lady Gaga with us

 

[amirm]

Amir

do you want to come see Lady Gaga with us

BTW, anyone hear of the "Baby Gaga?" http://english.pravda.ru/society/anomal/02-03-2011/117071-baby_gaga-0/

 

[Alan Sircom]

As I said, I have a playlist of 30-50 songs, almost none of which are old music. It has the new Sade and Peter Gabriel albums. Rickie Lee Jones. The top song in our playlist is from Allan Taylor (Colour to the Moon) which is circa 2000. Exceptionally clean guitar strings that shows off equipment very well and with his voice being similar to Dire Straits, rather familiar.

New music does not necessarily include new albums from old artists, but it's a good start. Tool, Grinderman, Mogwai, LCD Soundsystem, The Raconteurs, Godspeed! You Black Emperor, The Black Keys and The XX are all excellent contemporary alternatives. Some are a bit spiky and angular and there's not much in the way of wispy girl-with-guitar coffee-shop fluff, but they are worth checking.

Of course, play these at shows and you might as well be letting off a fire alarm. The room empties and stays that way, until you stick the plinky-plonky jazz or Stevie Ray Vaughan back on. Last Fall, I had a room at a show where I loaded up about 400 or so random albums onto a HDD and let the listeners choose their own tracks. Everything from Big Black to Beethoven and from Norah Jones to Nine Inch Nails. With a few exceptions, Norah Jones, SRV, Jennifer Warnes and Dire Straits were played over and over and over again. To blast the hangover away on the Sunday morning, I tried playing some Son House at a good volume; about 30 secs into the first track, someone motioned me to turn it down and asked if I had any 'real blues', like Stevie Ray Vaughan!

The audiophile industry entirely skips over the metal scene too, carefully avoiding one of the most obvious target audiences for hi-fi; young, typically well-educated males, often with high disposable income, and a passion for music played at the sort of volume that most budget equipment begins to struggle.

The whole headphone revolution is a fascinating one. It's another huge groundswell that is completely alien to the rank-and-file audio enthusiast. And that's part of the big problem. If the industry plays to its traditional audience, it's playing to an ever older audience at the expense of a younger one. If it goes after the younger one, the older one just goes away. The guys sitting enrapt in front of a pair of tube amps and panel speakers considers headphones to be at best a minority interest; at worst, they treat headphones like some kind of herpes. OTOH, the 25 year old sitting in his bedroom in front of two grand's worth of Ray Samuels headphone pre and the same again in modified Sennheisers or Grados thinks loudspeakers some kind of throwback to the 1950s. Focus on one at the expense of the other.

 

[rsbeck]

The simplest thing you can do, IMO, to wean young people into audiophile nervosa, is to start small.

I didn't have any ulterior motives, but I noticed my kids listen to their ipods and music on their computers with those cheap ipod earphones that come in the package.

So, I gave my kids some $75 Shure earphones and sure enough, they love them and use them.

Even that is a huge upgrade.

Next, I let them listen to uncompressed files so they could hear the improvement over MP3's from the itunes store.

Another huge upgrade.

Now, here adoption is slower, taking a bifurcated route.

When they get their music through file sharing, they are now careful to choose uncompressed -- they get that it sounds better and they can more easily hear the improvement with upgraded earphones and they want better sound.

But, they still buy compressed music from the itunes store because people give them itunes gift cards.

So, if they have a chance to increase their library, they are not yet the type of audiophile who would refuse on the grounds that it isn't high enough fidelity.

That will take time.

But, in the meantime, they are getting the idea that higher fidelity is more pleasurable and that you can get better sound by upgrading.

In my opinion, that's where it starts.

Or, maybe love of music is where it starts.

I find teenagers today to be pretty ecumenical in their tastes.

If they hear me playing something, they sometimes come in and ask to know the artist and then they'll pull the music off of our NAS to their own computer, ipod, or cell-phone.

In my day, the fact that my parents listened to it would be enough for me to steer clear.

These "milennials" listen to stuff that's up to the minute and they will mix it with Bob Marley, Hendrix, Van Morrison, etc.

They also call me into their rooms to listen to music they think I might like and -- again -- I would never have done that.

I craved my parents' stamp of disapproval.

Expose them to music and show some interest in the music to which they listen.

Create an upgrade addiction with small doses, resist the urge to be an audiophile perfectionist, and let the love of music and upgrade fever germinate.

Let them take it from there.

 

[Alan Sircom]

I'm one of those old guys who listens mostly to "old" music. It just my choice. I don't describe my music as superior to anybody's else's choices.

I've read hundreds of posts like Amir's in audiophile forums. There is an asymmetry in them that I find striking and somewhat alienating. I would caricature the two themes are

- Why do I have to listen to the music these old farts/mindless youth listen to? It has no value.

- Why can't everybody listen to the great stuff I like? Those people need to get better taste (mine).

I don't think that enforcing a conformity in taste is necessary today. The direction of music in the last 60 years has been toward segmenting the market. As a consumer, I can pick what I want to listen to. Finding common likes and dislikes is a nice way to interact with friends but it is done against a background of personal choice. Audio technology has made it easy for each person to have his own listening experience. All those people walking around with an iPod and earbuds can make their own choices about what to listen to.

As a store owner, Amir may need to have a wide variety of music available to demonstrate his product lines. Given my taste for "old" music, I might consider his choices to be rather limited. However, it doesn't matter as much as it used to. With computer based audio, it is quite easy to take a sample of your music on a flash drive or an iPod when you (and a friend perhaps) go to a high-end audio store.

Of course, that model is about a one or two audiophiles listening in a store. Audiophiles may think in terms of a communal listening experience in a store or at a audiophile show, but I doubt that teens and young adults are as strongly wedded to listening to recorded music in a group. A headphone users' meetup event seems a modern alternative to the sort of shows (older) audiophiles prefer.

Amir, I did not intend to offend you or anyone else.

Bill

This is all very true. I think the worst thing the audiophile would could do is get it spectacularly wrong and spend the next few years disenfranchising those who traditionally buy audio and patronizing those who don't, by assuming their tastes begin and end with American Idol or Justin Bieber.

If I cast my mind back to when I was in my 20s and listening to music, part of the difference between that time and a decade before (aside from disposable income) was the ability to see beyond the current trend. Teenagers are always going to move from trend to trend to trend. Ten years later, those who are passionate about music will be able to appreciate Mahler and Motorhead as much as Muse; they will have their specific tastes in music, but they won't be locked in a specific trend. So, although I'm often found advocating new music, there's nothing wrong with playing any music from any age. Where I get upset by all this is when there's essentially the entire canon of music available to a listener, why should they pick out the same dozen or so tracks. Jazz is not a series of footnotes to Jazz at the Pawnshop, in fact most jazzers would consider that vapid slice of dinner jazz to be musically uninteresting, but to the audiophile that and We Get Requests (not even Oscar Peterson's best album) almost define the jazz idiom. Grr!

 

[garylkoh]

I want to make sure we don't go down a personal route here . I thought the discussion was about the collective taste of the audiophile community and whether that is a barrier for others to appreciate. Even though I will be 51 this year, I chimed in saying that I think there is merit in that. I don't find audiophile sessions that consists entirely of old music fun. So to the extent I can be someone here representing the other group, the point made in the post rings true.

Nothing here is trying to force their music choices. But rather, if we want to grow the market, we need to expose people listening to our systems to newer music. Of course we could say we don't care in which case, this thread is moot .

I think that we need to expose a new audience - and not necessarily to just newer music. I've had a lot of young people come in, and they go Wow! and WOW! even when they hear my "old fart music". The collective taste of the audiophile community is invested in the music that we have collected over the years, and hence we have a lot of investment in old music and that's what we play. I continually search out old music, because there are a lot of recordings that I still do not have - and I have continued to enjoy participation in this forum because of the music.

Nevertheless, it would be great if someone like Keith could start a thread with new music, and even Amir might want to contribute with something from his playlist of 50 new songs.

 

[rsbeck]

I also find that my teens and their friends are very much into Pandora, a music service where they create their own radio stations with music customized to their taste based on information they supply.

Love of music and the desire for better sound is not going to go away.

The worst thing audiophiles can do, IMO, is make it seem like better sound is some OCD, perfectionistic goal that is miles away and will take up all your time and money you can't possibly afford.

In other words, try to hide that!

 

[amirm]

I also find that my teens and their friends are very much into Pandora, a music service where they create their own radio stations with music customized to their taste based on information they supply.

So true. Since getting an Android phone for my middle son, when he is the car with me that is all he listens. He used to be religious about bringing his music player with him but no more.

 

[rsbeck]

Rsbeck,

Just talk to any engineer out there. They will tell you that they have a superior product. But for them to sell it, they need to tell you about it and convince you to purchase it instead of someone else's product.

Well, my answer to that would be -- an engineer is not the arbiter of which is the better mousetrap.

The public will tell you that.

When I was building my house, I went to a butt-load of open house audio/video demos where the latest/greatest control solutions could be experienced.

I can only imagine how many thousands of hours of engineering must have gone into these products and how many people must have been convinced that this was a better mouse-trap.

If they didn't, it stands to reason they never would have brought it to market.

It usually took me about twenty seconds to figure out that it was too complicated for my wife and family to use.

Why? Because just like your hypothetical example, it took too much explanation.

Each item would produce the "glaze over" effect.

I'll give you another example;

Years ago, there was a belief that advertising could create a need and then tell you how to fill it.

The example was under arm deodorant. It was a relatively new product, new market, humans hadn't really seen the need for it.

Advertising must have created this market, right?

Then, one of the big firms started advertising ear deodorant. They showed people in conversation, one would smell a foul odor coming from the other's ear, this would cause shame and embarrassment and then the ad told you how to deodorize your ears. The ad campaign was so unsuccessful, most people do not even remember the ads or the product.

People don't carry with them the fear that their ears might emit an odor and cause embarrassment.

Here's another some might or might not remember.

In the politically correct 70's and 80's, we were told there were no actual differences between men and women -- it was all due to socialization.

All of those TV ads advertising guns and war toys, no wonder boys want them! So -- hey (slap forehead) why didn't we think of this before?!!!

All we have to do is advertise them to girls and -- boom -- double our freakin' sales!!!

Well, it was tried and died a spectacular failure.

Same thing was tried with video games a few years later. Why? IMO, because we never seem to learn that you can't force anything on the public, you have to touch a nerve that is already there.

When you do, you light a wildfire.

Word of mouth is always your best and most cost effective advertising.

Most huge advertising campaigns are about something else -- trying to protect or reshuffle market share in markets that have already been established and where small changes will result in the kinds of profits or lost profits that make such an outlay a cost of doing business.

 

[Steve williams]

Here is an interesting observation on my part. Our kids learn this hobby from us. My son thinks I am crazy to have a system as mine even though he loves the sound. More importantly however not only does he love the sound he loves the music. Unlike most of you who are well versed in classical music,I however am a true rocker. I have found that I can walk by my kid's rooms and they were listening to The Stones, Floyd, and anything that they heard from me.

If there is a moral , look to your kids as your legacy in this hobby, because it is changing as we know it now. Kids could care less about sophisticated rooms, speakers, tape recorders, turntables etc, etc

They want to have the ease of portability as well as great sound. Vastly different from what we talk about as high end.

"lock and load"

 

[fas42]

New thread hasn't started, so a tidbit from my part of the world -- last group that got us going, some years ago: Karma County, try "Olana". Think country, pop, world with Eastern influence all wrapped up, super smooth sound; to me, as creative as Peter Gabriel on PG4. On a general note, I found it bizarre that works like PG4 and Jarre's Zoolook didn't lead to something that became more mainstream. Oh well, ...

Frank

 

[Ron Party]

Did someone mention my avatar? Comparing an album to Security is mighty high praise. Rhythm Of The Heat, San Jacinto, Shock The Monkey, I Have The Touch? I will check them out.

 

[Old Listener]

I also find that my teens and their friends are very much into Pandora, a music service where they create their own radio stations with music customized to their taste based on information they supply.

People can have different modes of listening to music for different circumstances in their lives.

My wife and I got a new car in late December. It came with a Sirius (satellite) radio capable radio and a 3 month trial subscription. Listening to a channel we like has been a simple and painless way to listen to music in that car. I signed up for paid service because we'll be on car trips most of the spring.

When I'm at home, I do not listen to any sort of streaming service. I want control of what I listen to. Quality is a lesser issue but a significant one.

The worst thing audiophiles can do, IMO, is make it seem like better sound is some OCD, perfectionistic goal that is miles away and will take up all your time and money you can't possibly afford.

Can people who find their personal "good enough" point be audiophiles? I think so.

Bill

 

[fas42]

Sorry Ron, I never picked it! Yep, Zoolook will probably do it for you, Olana is a whole different style, but it is the level of creativity in every song that did it for me ...

Frank

 

[Peter Breuninger]

A writer named Jack English said that the highend was dead. That young people had no idea what high quality music reproduction was and that sales of five figure loudspeakers would soon cease. In essence, it’s over folks.

Well, that was 1991. Guess what? Last I looked, it’s still here. TAS, Stereophile, Wilson, Krell, Audio Research, Lamm, Conrad Johnson, MBL (now back distributed in NA). Sure, some of the founding visionaries have retired, or passed but new ones are popping up every day. Witness; Alon Wolf, Hervé Delétraz, Gerhard Hurt, and a host of others. The cost of entry at the very top is as high as it was in 1991. That $60,000 IRS IV would be $141,000 today (relative share GDP growth). Sound familiar? Like Wilson Alexandra II territory? Yup. Luxury goods are priced at luxury good levels. Just think of all the new 10x millionaires coming on line in the emerging markets where hifi is cool.

Trust me, the guy who exits his Internet startup at age 26 with 98 million dollars will find the highend. Put it another way, the highend will find him.

Why do we have to do anything? It’s the market at work.

Dying? Dead? Who says?

Breuninger

 

[audioguy]

Why do we have to do anything? It’s the market at work.

Dying? Dead? Who says?Breuninger

Let's just say I see it a lot differently. If we are depending on multi-millionaires to keep this hobby (high end music systems) thriving, this hobby is toast. In fact, the hobby as we understand it is toast.

I think Steve is right on when he says his kids love the sound of his system but think he's crazy.

Both of my kids (in their 30's) had very nice systems that I purchased for them and were certainly exposed to nice music and systems as I had my audio systems before either was born. One has given all of the pieces away and the other did as well. The music they both listen to exists in their iPhone or iPhone equivalent. Neither could give a rip about having a place to sit and relax and listen to music. WAY too many other things to occupy available time.

And I would bet that either of them listens to twice as much music as I do !!