How dumb have music listeners and musicians become?

Quote Originally Posted by JackD201
You also keep on using your microphone rant in a mono context when we aren't talking about mono. A mono mike won't give you a stable center image unless you split the signal in two and play them back as if there were two of them. You don't need a center channel to get a decently convincing center image out of two spaced loudspeakers so I don't see how you can even say you require a discreet soundsource and a discreet signal to simulate one.
I've mentioned this before, but it possibly bears repeating: one easy, "technical" test I have for overall system performance is to put on a good true mono recording, stand centre of the speakers, and say a foot in front of the line joining the tweeters. In a reasonable system there will obviously be a phantom image smack bang in front of you. I then move sideways and see how far the illusion of that phantom image still stays directly in front of me.

I have to say I haven't come across any other systems that can sustain this any decent distance: anybody listening who can get this happening in a big way?

Frank
Jack, I think you should have stayed in mixing school a bit longer. Typical mixes are of single mono tracks, each panned to a specific point in the L/R spectrum. So a mono (single channel) vocal track panned center, should appear dead center during a stereo playback. It's exactly the same thing as splitting one feed into two channels.

Frank, I don't see the value in your positional test. Up that close to the speakers, the mono presentation should be rather broad left to right since you're not at the focal point of the speakers. As you then move right to left all you would notice is a weakening of the opposite channel, and some phase shift between the two.

The most correct way to judge the center channel, is to imagine a line drawn on axis from the front of each speaker cabinet toward your listening position. Where the line from each speaker intersects is the center channel focus point of the speakers. Whether you're listening to mono or stereo material, if you position your head so the point of the intersection of the lines is right on your ears, and then move your head forward and back relative to the intersect point, you should find a point right behind the point (to the rear) where the center appears to be right in front of you. Move back a little further and the image moves away from you (clearly), but move forward and the point moves behind you, which gives you the effect of being more surrounded by the soundstage. Generally speaking, the ideal listening position is with the point right in front of you, but some like the image submersion you experience by moving forward a bit. The only problem with that is that the center channel information becomes less focused as you move forward.

It's essential to the stereo sound stage reproduction that you can clearly identify this point and move around in front of and behind it. At my seated position at the DAW display monitors, I'm slightly forward of that audio point, but can easily move in and out of it to judge sound stage positioning and placement. It also helps give you a mixing perspective balancing center channel to side channel levels.

--Bill
 
:) There's nothing more I can really say Tim except that is in the curriculum of at least three educational recording institutes that I know of, one of which I attended. You keep talkng about mics and how they don't know stuff. Well a chisel doesn't know stuff but that doesn't stop a sculpture from making things with them. You also keep on using your microphone rant in a mono context when we aren't talking about mono. A mono mike won't give you a stable center image unless you split the signal in two and play them back as if there were two of them. You don't need a center channel to get a decently convincing center image out of two spaced loudspeakers so I don't see how you can even say you require a discreet soundsource and a discreet signal to simulate one. On the latter how do you think simulated multichannel center and rear channel signals is created from two channels? Your logic, pun intended, just sucks. So while you and Bill are absolutely correct that there is no height information on the raw mic feed on one track, this little nugget of truth is actually insignificant in the broader scheme of things. Sometime I think you just see no value in the importance of psychoacoustics referenced by Micro, Odin and myself. All from someone who has said after all that the end result that matters. So either you reject the concepts on a narrow dogmatic ground or still can't grasp them.
Someone can't, that's for sure.

Even Bill has skirted the fact that in certain rooms he's been able to get sound to hover his listener's heads with just two channels. Simulate surround sound as well. That is height.
I've not 'skirted' anything. Sorry, no it's not. The effect is created by a 100% out of phase signal being applied to L and R channels (out of phase left compared to right). If the room is reasonable acoustically, the 'effect' would be that the sound is wrapped around you, almost feeling like it's coming from behind you. Some people will 'interpret' that phenomena as being overhead. It is not height, it's simply an illusion created by out of phase panning.

For those listening on headphones, the true center channel of a stereo pair will never appear in front of you, but rather right in your head or a little upward depending on the phones. An out of phase center channel will appear slightly above your head, separate from the real center channel, but without the strong positional info that places the center channel in your head.

Odin and I have tv and film backgrounds Bill's is music, we've got to get voices in the middle of the screen, not above it or below it. If he really tried I'm sure he could accomplish what we've been able to do. The tricks to do it are the very same tricks he probably employs to enhance separation of instruments by decongesting the sound stage anyway. Since he knows that panning isn't everything, I am in fact certain he could.
Nonsense. The only reason that dialogue for films in the theaters is in the middle of the screen, is because dialogue is a separately identified multi-track channel (called CENTER) and that channel feeds a sound array that, guess what? Is in the middle of the screen. The alleged height information you hear in theaters because of 'surround' mixing is because those speakers are placed close to the ceiling in most theaters. That's ALL.

My home theater has center channel behind the screen, so dialogue in center channels comes from the center. The front L & R channels also have a phantom center channel but it is no where nearly as obvious as the dialogue channel, even if they are adjusted to the same level.

Other home theaters may have the center channel above or below the screen, but it doesn't much matter. After the first few minutes of the movie your ears adjust to it and the sound seems to be coming from the actors on the screen. No Big.

You could not simulate what is done in surround mixing, in stereo mixing. You could (sort of) emulate it, but it would be a very week second with very soft 'positioning' very subject to your physical placement in the room.

--Bill
 
JFrank, I don't see the value in your positional test. Up that close to the speakers, the mono presentation should be rather broad left to right since you're not at the focal point of the speakers. As you then move right to left all you would notice is a weakening of the opposite channel, and some phase shift between the two.

The most correct way to judge the center channel, is to imagine a line drawn on axis from the front of each speaker cabinet toward your listening position. Where the line from each speaker intersects is the center channel focus point of the speakers. Whether you're listening to mono or stereo material, if you position your head so the point of the intersection of the lines is right on your ears, and then move your head forward and back relative to the intersect point, you should find a point right behind the point (to the rear) where the center appears to be right in front of you. Move back a little further and the image moves away from you (clearly), but move forward and the point moves behind you, which gives you the effect of being more surrounded by the soundstage. Generally speaking, the ideal listening position is with the point right in front of you, but some like the image submersion you experience by moving forward a bit. The only problem with that is that the center channel information becomes less focused as you move forward.
It's obvious, Bill, that you've set up up your monitoring gear for extremely sharp imaging: my focus has been very, very different; aiming to get to get maximum soundstage by making the sound from the drivers as clean as possible, reducing the level of what some people call system noise, what I call low level distortion. I can certainly appreciate the value of what you've done from the point of view of your needs for accurate mixing and mastering, but my objective is the experience I highlighted above. That point you talk of may exist for my system, but I've never been aware of such: I prefer for the sound field to fool my ears -- the soundstage is very stable as I move around the room, there is no need to locate in a sweet spot.

The postional test I mentioned is essentially verifying the cleanness of sound coming from the speaker drivers: the phantom image when everything's good is rock solid, you are completely unaware while doing this that the phantom image is being created by two disparate sound sources -- the speakers truly "disappear".

Frank
 
Well, Adele's '21' is my new reference "bad" recording, and I've made some progress. It highlighted that the SQ had fallen off a bit, what happens when you turn your back for a moment; and managed to identify a culprit. No, it hasn't "fixed" the album's problems, but it allowed a full run through of all the tracks at high volume without my wife screaming at me to turn it off! The overcooking is still there, the ridiculous crushing and EQ'ng of her voice, but it is now very pleasant to listen to from the other end of the house! The absorption by the air on the way, of the excessive energy imbalance, does a good job of filtering the sound, in a good way. So I all I need to do is work out what precisely the passage through the hallway and rooms did exactly, and mimic it electronically ...!!!

Frank
 
Bill

Stereo itself IS all about phase manipulation. Whoever said otherwise? You yourself said that you can get the listener's perception of the MONO recorded signal over your listener's heads but not in front of them. That is height manipulation right there and you have been able to do it to that extent. Maybe you just need more practice.

Now you're off to matrixed vs discreet. Well thank you very much. Weaker as Matrixed is, at least you've categorically admitted it has been and can be done.
 
As Bill writes above, there's no "trick" to getting the dialogue to come from the actors' mouths in a movie. In proper theatres, the loudspeakers for the center channel are behind the screen, which is perforated, to let through the sound (check it out next time you're in a proper movie theatre).

In home theatres, the center channel speakers are usually below the screen, offset from where the actors are, but our brains "move" the impression of where the sound comes from, without any technology being involved. (There are home theatre screens with perforation, for correct placement of the center channel - which contains only dialogue - check that out by disconnecting it, and your movie will fall silent).

Which gives you another cue as to how good our brains are at moving apparent sources around - because you could have sworn that voices tracked the actors' movements from left to right, but all the time, the voices were coming out of the center channel speaker(s).
 
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Bill

Stereo itself IS all about phase manipulation. Whoever said otherwise? You yourself said that you can get the listener's perception of the MONO recorded signal over your listener's heads but not in front of them. That is height manipulation right there and you have been able to do it to that extent. Maybe you just need more practice.

Now you're off to matrixed vs discreet. Well thank you very much. Weaker as Matrixed is, at least you've categorically admitted it has been and can be done.
Jack,
It's clear that you're not reading and comprehending what folks (including me) are writing, but rather just picking and choosing, often out of context, what you happen to resonate with. You still aren't getting it.

Sorry.

--Bill
 
You know what? I have the exact impression of you.
 
I think a lot of us have been talking past each other on this issue. Nature of the beast, I suppose.

Tim
 
the soundstage is very stable as I move around the room, there is no need to locate in a sweet spot.

Frank

that is probably the most absurd thing I have read today. I am simply amazed that your sound is so good that there is no sweet spot but is equally good anywhere in your house. Wish I were so lucky.
 
Frank

that is probably the most absurd thing I have read today. I am simply amazed that your sound is so good that there is no sweet spot but is equally good anywhere in your house. Wish I were so lucky.
Well, it's what I've been talking about since I got involved in this forum -- I'm steadily getting the friend to push his system to the same level. Even Adele's '21' has massive levels of soundstaging, depth and all the rest of it: the big problem is that the manipulation is too obvious and doesn't make musical sense when nearby.

As I've also repeated many, many times it takes a great deal of effort and attention to detail to get there, but the end result is worth it in spades. It means that the system alway sounds good, whether you actively listen, or pay attention to something else; and if you go into another room. I can go to the bathroom, there are two layers of walling between that and the system and you can still "hear" the quality, shall we call it, of the sound. Just like the real thing ...

Frank
 
Well, it's what I've been talking about since I got involved in this forum -- I'm steadily getting the friend to push his system to the same level. Even Adele's '21' has massive levels of soundstaging, depth and all the rest of it: the big problem is that the manipulation is too obvious and doesn't make musical sense when nearby.

As I've also repeated many, many times it takes a great deal of effort and attention to detail to get there, but the end result is worth it in spades. It means that the system alway sounds good, whether you actively listen, or pay attention to something else; and if you go into another room. I can go to the bathroom, there are two layers of walling between that and the system and you can still "hear" the quality, shall we call it, of the sound. Just like the real thing ...

Frank

Well Frank....I was just listening to some Natalie Merchant -Tigerlilly in my audio room , and left for a few minutes to check on my dinner, and no way did it sound as good in the kitchen (which is 15ft away), although I could hear sound.
 
Frank, if you can hear sound staging and depth from another room then something here is amiss.
 
I want some of whatever frank is smoking. My monitors could sound like Steve's Lamms and Wilsons...from the corner bar.

Tim
 
Frank, if you can hear sound staging and depth from another room then something here is amiss.
No, obviously not. But it sounds real, which is something entirely different. How many times have people posted here about sound coming from a window, while walking down the street, and they KNOW it's the real thing. That's what I'm talking about, the acoustic signature is coming through, telling you that all the "bits" are in place for the sound to be realistic.

The subtleties are, that it may sound impressively realistic in some ways from another room, but when you then go to in front of the speakers it's not right: the sound is too "in your face", it has a hyped up, unnatural quality. In the next round of optimising the sound when you are directly in front of the speakers is still very "loud", intense, but feels completely natural -- real in other words ...

Frank
 
Well, it's what I've been talking about since I got involved in this forum -- I'm steadily getting the friend to push his system to the same level. Even Adele's '21' has massive levels of soundstaging, depth and all the rest of it: the big problem is that the manipulation is too obvious and doesn't make musical sense when nearby.

As I've also repeated many, many times it takes a great deal of effort and attention to detail to get there, but the end result is worth it in spades. It means that the system alway sounds good, whether you actively listen, or pay attention to something else; and if you go into another room. I can go to the bathroom, there are two layers of walling between that and the system and you can still "hear" the quality, shall we call it, of the sound. Just like the real thing ...

Frank

Frank

You are truly delusional. Never in my 50 years of being involved in this hobby have I read any claim so absolutely ridiculous. For you to say that you get sound staging any where in your house with your speakers in a different room defies all laws of applicable physics . Good to see that after 25 years you have found some one else to drink the Kool Aid.

What an absolutely lucky person you are to have found this in your home. Strangely however you haven't been able to replicate height in such an amazing system
 
I guess we all need to sell our gear and buy a HTIAB.
 

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