How dumb have music listeners and musicians become?
- Thread starter mep
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If a system sounds better off axis or even more toward that in which is real in another room, then said system needs improvement to be honest. I have been there. I know what it is he is talking about. The frequencies. He's a frequency listener and the frequencies sound more toward the "real" thing from another room or rooms away. Instead of the cheap shots and insults, could we please introduce him into ideas that would present him to better sound?
We all listen to different things. We are all at a certain point within our own personal audio journey. If we are to discuss in an intelligent way how sound can be improved, we must realize that some folks may be at a different level along their audio journey. I'm sure many have been at his point and moved along since then. How about coaching him into possible better sound, rather than doing what it is we are doing, which serves no purpose?
We all listen to different things. We are all at a certain point within our own personal audio journey. If we are to discuss in an intelligent way how sound can be improved, we must realize that some folks may be at a different level along their audio journey. I'm sure many have been at his point and moved along since then. How about coaching him into possible better sound, rather than doing what it is we are doing, which serves no purpose?
This thread is the thread drift champ of the world albeit I plead guilty of contributing to that! 
"The other room phenomena" deserves a thread of its own methinks.
"The other room phenomena" deserves a thread of its own methinks.
Jack, I do agree. All of us are at different levels along our audio journey. He seems to be a frequency listener [which I was at some point years back]. See my thread here to attempt to define such a listener...
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...nd-of-listener-would-you-classify-yourself-as
I remember back then talking to a respected guy and mentioning the very thing he mentions. It depends on where you are at along your audio journey and belittling him serves no purpose. Trying to educate him and showing him the way might just yield in catapulting him to our own level. That's up to him but truth be told, it's just as much up to us.
Actually, Frank has been trying to educate us! I rather think he enjoys the ribbing.
He does make crazy claims but if you read carefully a lot of it is just poor communication mainly because he keeps injecting his focal points in the wrong contexts. This other room thing injected in a soundstage discussion is I think the most perfect and yes absurd example even if I think most of if not all of us hear have experienced being fooled into thinking there were actual musicians playing in adjacent rooms before rather than stereos.
He does make crazy claims but if you read carefully a lot of it is just poor communication mainly because he keeps injecting his focal points in the wrong contexts. This other room thing injected in a soundstage discussion is I think the most perfect and yes absurd example even if I think most of if not all of us hear have experienced being fooled into thinking there were actual musicians playing in adjacent rooms before rather than stereos.
Frank, how are you feeling emotionally, recently?
From your true friend who luv and respect you, and without any prejudice whatsoever,
Bob (the musician)
From your true friend who luv and respect you, and without any prejudice whatsoever,
Bob (the musician)
I know, Jack. That said, you and I [along with others] know otherwise. Things are what they are. What I'm saying is that instead if doing what it is we are doing here, let's try [our best] to let him know what the shortcomings of his system may be. Let us show him what's possible. I would like to think with the knowledge of this forum we might achieve said goal.
....If he is willing to listen.
....If he is willing to listen.
treitz, that's very kind. You have no way of knowing the many roads we've traveled with Frank and the handful of odd theories and bizarre methods he has brought up, over and over again, in thread after thread, regardless of whether or not the subject of the thread was even remotely relevant. You can't know that we've been right where you are now, listening, patiently, to what he thinks he hears and trying to explain to him why that can't be it, trying to help him get a grip on what really is going on. And how he has insisted that he has found, in his small power and interference tweaks, secret methods (he never quite tells us what he's doing, there could be great commercial potential, you know...) that not only go beyond anything this fairly knowledgeable crowd has ever achieved or heard of, but that defy the very laws of science and nature.
Your kindness is admirable. Your patience will eventually run thin. If it does not, I'll recommend you for sainthood.
Tim
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
IMO "if" and I say "if" Frank can maintain soundstage from anywhere in the house, there are only two ways this can happen
1. He is truly delusional
2. He is deaf in one ear
1. He is truly delusional
2. He is deaf in one ear
That is well said,
and that is the goal (should be the goal) of any intelligent and loving human being.
Why, thankyah, thankyah, Jack ...Actually, Frank has been trying to educate us! I rather think he enjoys the ribbing.
He does make crazy claims but if you read carefully a lot of it is just poor communication mainly because he keeps injecting his focal points in the wrong contexts. This other room thing injected in a soundstage discussion is I think the most perfect and yes absurd example even if I think most of if not all of us hear have experienced being fooled into thinking there were actual musicians playing in adjacent rooms before rather than stereos.
Not crazy, but hard to reconcile for a lot of people. The other room thing IS part of the discussion, in that it is a measure of whether the soundstage being generated is one that has, shall we call it, a higher validity. I have heard endless systems where there is a certain "correct" quality to it when you listen in the right spot, but they sound bloody awful elsewhere. Not my cup of tea, sorry -- the last time I heard real music sound like that was ... ummm, ummm, ummm ... hmmm, not quite sure ...
As already mentioned, of course you can get a system sounding good from the distance, dynamics is the number one thing for doing that, but the next stage is cleaning up those dynamics. And that's the hard one. I posted quite some time ago the exercise of putting on a string quartet at realistic levels, going to the furthest point in your house, saying, yes, that sounds on the money; then walking back through the house to the system, up to the speakers and placing your ear within inches of the tweeter. At no time going through that exercise does the illusion of the performance fail. Believe It, Or Not!!
So, Tom, I know exactly also where you're coming from, but you're wrong ...
Frank
I do a lot of 'passive' music listening in my home, and the sound is coming from 'airfoil' (Linaeum tweeters) from my bedroom right near my PC room (nearest speaker to my ears = 13 feet).
Ok, the soundstage is not in front of me, but behind me (rearstage). And I just don't bother yet to put two monitors on my PC table (I used headphones for critical listening).
And if the music is just right, and at the right listening level, with the right mood, I am totally taken by its grip deep down in my guts & soul.
And this for me, is also a true reality in the pleasurable music listening experience.
There is much more too ...
Ok, the soundstage is not in front of me, but behind me (rearstage). And I just don't bother yet to put two monitors on my PC table (I used headphones for critical listening).
And if the music is just right, and at the right listening level, with the right mood, I am totally taken by its grip deep down in my guts & soul.
And this for me, is also a true reality in the pleasurable music listening experience.
There is much more too ...
*sigh*
I see where it is you are coming from, Tim.
Frank, I hate to say this but you have much to learn. I know all too well exactly what it is you are saying. I have been there. Thing is, I have moved on. I was once a frequency listener and from rooms or multiple walls away, it can sound as if you are in the bathroom at a concert. Thing is, that's not where I want to be for a reproduction or a concert, for that matter. I'd rather be at the concert. Front row, third row or wherever the recording places me. This is in the sweet spot or whatever is commonly referred too as the listening position, not the freakin' toilet two rooms over.
Allow me to ask you just one simple question, if you will.
How are your speakers set up and in what listening position in relation to said speakers do you "normally" listen too?
I see where it is you are coming from, Tim.
Frank, I hate to say this but you have much to learn. I know all too well exactly what it is you are saying. I have been there. Thing is, I have moved on. I was once a frequency listener and from rooms or multiple walls away, it can sound as if you are in the bathroom at a concert. Thing is, that's not where I want to be for a reproduction or a concert, for that matter. I'd rather be at the concert. Front row, third row or wherever the recording places me. This is in the sweet spot or whatever is commonly referred too as the listening position, not the freakin' toilet two rooms over.
Allow me to ask you just one simple question, if you will.
How are your speakers set up and in what listening position in relation to said speakers do you "normally" listen too?
Bob, I'm disappointed in you -- and I thought you were on my side (at times) :b:b ! Don't worry, Bob, it's all good, I might eventually get this crowd, kicking and screaming, over to the dark side: my perverse view of audio ...
And Tim has added his usual fatherly lecture, appreciate that, Tim!!
Just remember folks, I'm not really interested in soundstaging and imaging, I'm interested in the illusion of a real musical event happening, which is the hardest thing to achieve by far. A lot of the time my setup over the years has sounded exactly like what you people probably think it sounds like: the difference is that I know what it can sound like if I get everything right. The ongoing journey is to sort that out in every aspect, which is why I keep hanging in there ...
Frank
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Listen to this my dear fellow WBF members:
When I go to a Jazz or Blues club, I love dancing, I love talking at the bar, I love talking and listening from the tables and cruising the cute girls; I MOVE all around and I am happy wherever I move.
Now, this is only the start! I am a musician (non-pro for over 40 years), and I've been all around, in all type of music joints, and my friends (all the people who know me well), they fully respect my musical journey, taste, integrity, and well developed 'joie de vivre'.
I only visit audio forums on the Internet because it is my true passion; and when I see people spitting on each other it makes me real sick deep in my heart. I hurts me greatly, and it seems that no one has a heart anymore in 2012.
Frank has seceral valid points, but it ain't everyone who can see that; because their mind are simply close into their own beliefs, their own conventional wisdoms.
That's fine, but as long that no one offends or feel offended.
Words are powerful on the Internet, and reputations are often created by the ones who judge too quickly and without open doors!
And there is much more too ...
Hey, I'm like anyone else here; I can read what you've been saying for the last year, I observe, I feel, I share, I try to get along (with EVERYONE); but it for sure ain't easy, that I can tell you, and no matter how good or bad you are!
Anyway, in this Audio hobby 'bad' doesn't exist; Music is a peaceful language.
___________________
Frank; I AM ON YOUR SIDE for Music/Luv sake! :b
When I go to a Jazz or Blues club, I love dancing, I love talking at the bar, I love talking and listening from the tables and cruising the cute girls; I MOVE all around and I am happy wherever I move.
Now, this is only the start! I am a musician (non-pro for over 40 years), and I've been all around, in all type of music joints, and my friends (all the people who know me well), they fully respect my musical journey, taste, integrity, and well developed 'joie de vivre'.
I only visit audio forums on the Internet because it is my true passion; and when I see people spitting on each other it makes me real sick deep in my heart. I hurts me greatly, and it seems that no one has a heart anymore in 2012.
Frank has seceral valid points, but it ain't everyone who can see that; because their mind are simply close into their own beliefs, their own conventional wisdoms.
That's fine, but as long that no one offends or feel offended.
Words are powerful on the Internet, and reputations are often created by the ones who judge too quickly and without open doors!
And there is much more too ...
Hey, I'm like anyone else here; I can read what you've been saying for the last year, I observe, I feel, I share, I try to get along (with EVERYONE); but it for sure ain't easy, that I can tell you, and no matter how good or bad you are!
Anyway, in this Audio hobby 'bad' doesn't exist; Music is a peaceful language.
___________________
Frank; I AM ON YOUR SIDE for Music/Luv sake! :b
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Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Well Bob, all very nice to say but at the end of the day when it's my ass in the sweet spot, I want to be sitting dead center several rows back from the stage not as Treitz says a bathroom 2 rooms over. Sorry but I guess I am one of those old fashioned guys who like soundstage and imaging
Tim,
Nominate Treitz for Sainthood. I've already contacted Ripley's to nominate Frank.
Just kidding Frankie!
Nominate Treitz for Sainthood. I've already contacted Ripley's to nominate Frank.
Just kidding Frankie!
Steve, I totally agree with you, and today I was doing just that (sitting dead center between my two front flankers, or girlfriends) in my main living room, from my main rig setup.
Wanna see some pictures?
In a good Classical concert Hall, I like center, or slighty to the right for the big drums back there, and row "I" at the farthest.
Row "F, G, & H" are perfect too for me.
In Music listening as in Life itself, there is an Active calibration, and also a Passive experimentation.
Do you know what I mean Steve?
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Bob, if I wanted something to sound the same in one room as if listening in another room I would buy a radio
Like I said for my ears and my wallet, I prefer soundstage and imaging but with all of the hundreds of posts in the 2 threads here on such maybe I'm wrong and Frank has the whole thing figured out
Frank continues to tell us that he has had an epihany 25 years ago when everything was aligned in his system and it sounded perfect but never again. He continues to attempt to recreate that magic moment with all of his tinkering and soldering but it hasn't happened. As Treitz said it's time to move on
Like I said for my ears and my wallet, I prefer soundstage and imaging but with all of the hundreds of posts in the 2 threads here on such maybe I'm wrong and Frank has the whole thing figured out
Frank continues to tell us that he has had an epihany 25 years ago when everything was aligned in his system and it sounded perfect but never again. He continues to attempt to recreate that magic moment with all of his tinkering and soldering but it hasn't happened. As Treitz said it's time to move on
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