How Good a CD Transport is Required to Sound Better than Streaming?

Esoteric-CD.jpg
There seems to be a fairly solid consensus (Lucasz Ficus, LL21, Al M, etc.) that CD playback or computer file playback, or perhaps both, sound better than streaming (assuming, of course, that all other variables, including the DAC, are held constant).

But I assume that one cannot assume that any device that can spin a CD necessarily will achieve better sound quality than will streaming.

So how good a CD transport does one need to achieve CD playback which sounds better than streaming? Where do the lines (rising sound quality of better transport and streaming sound quality) cross?
 
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reality about the myth of an all electric future. need a genie to deliver what politicians are legislating/promising. 'feel good' electric cars are just that. their actual carbon equation is debatable. and the power grid is maybe 30-40 years away, by then it might be hydrogen/fuel cell anyway. a hundred years from now that will be where things go.

no one knows.
It's obvious you have not been taking your medication Mike. The nurse is going to have to look under your tongue to make sure your swallowing it.

We are now looking at 2019 as we don't like the flat screen controls on the center console you have to jab at with your finger to make work. We want real buttons.

I have a Samsung. Bummer the car is Apple only.
 
The E car is wonderful issue is all politics now , batteries and there carbon foot print is not the only issue
charging them from power plants many miles away is just as bad.
In 2006 I had a lexas hybrid 400h. bested there all gas model in gasoline usssage and had much more power too
politics have moved us away from hybrids
E cars are the future but how to get them there power is all political and no where to be correct
hybrids are now
fuel cells next but again it’s been around since the 50,s yet we still don’t have them lol
same for
methane or natural gas
I have a project I do work for in brooklyn , ny it’s all about hydrogen fuel cell technology
a better cell is amonia more safe.
it’s fed funded and private investment
a few years now
recently they have a tractor to show where millions have gone
did somebody say scam !! it’s best at wasting capital and should be on trucking years ago.
 
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It's obvious you have not been taking your medication Mike. The nurse is going to have to look under your tongue to make sure your swallowing it.

We are now looking at 2019 as we don't like the flat screen controls on the center console you have to jab at with your finger to make work. We want real buttons.

I have a Samsung. Bummer the car is Apple only.
Honda did return to an actual volume rotating knob, within easy no look reach, for their sound systems....in their most recent model cycles.

Honda's have the best human engineering of any cars. which means things are where they should be and you can focus on the driving and not processing. Honda's certainly have menu's and various adjustments too; but many are locked out if the car is not in park. safety first.
 
I drive a Tesla Model S. After 35+ years of driving BMW, Lexus, Audi, Acura etc., I’m not going back to gas guzzlers. The Model S is made 35 miles from my house in Fremont. It goes 0-60 in 2 seconds. I have unlimited free supercharging. In the last 3 years, maintenance costs have been $0. I recently drove 1600 miles to Oregon. Supercharging cost::$0. I could drive this car a million miles. Other than changing tires, I’m not sure it needs maintenance. Oh ya, windshield fluid refilling. But gas guzzlers? Oil changes, spark plugs, fuel filters, timing belts, a million little things to replace. I’ve spent a small fortune getting gas guzzlers repaired over the past 35 years. Not going back there. But most of my neighbors drive giant gas guzzling SUVs. With gas in California nearly $7 a gallon, they must be paying thousands of dollars each month in fuel costs alone, not to mention all the service costs. But, let’s face it, if you love the smell of carbon monoxide in your lungs, you’ve got to have your fix.

All that said, I can’t stand Musk or his politics. Hope he doesn’t flush Twitter down the toilet. Last I heard, he wants to move its headquarters to Texas. I’d love to get a different EV. BMW? Are you listening? Stop with this silly i3 nonsense and produce a real EV!
 
Out of an abundance of curiosity, I did some further listening to the transport versus streaming. I have been playing the Keb Mo disc non-stop to break-in the Rossini transport since it only had five or so hours on it when I first commented. Maybe we are at 30 hours now? About the same on the Shunyata Omega AES cables leading from the transport as well. So arguably more break-in to happen.

Now, I would say it’s very difficult to find any difference between the streaming sound I am getting and the CD playback. Both are at a very fine level.

Keep in mind that I have an approximately $6,500 ethernet switch from Ansuz that really helped on the streaming sound, not to mention the new power strip the router is plugged into and the Ansuz ethernet Sort noise reduction device.

So that’s at least one data point for you Ron. I will try again after 100 hours.
 
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I drive a Tesla Model S. After 35+ years of driving BMW, Lexus, Audi, Acura etc., I’m not going back to gas guzzlers. The Model S is made 35 miles from my house in Fremont. It goes 0-60 in 2 seconds. I have unlimited free supercharging. In the last 3 years, maintenance costs have been $0. I recently drove 1600 miles to Oregon. Supercharging cost::$0. I could drive this car a million miles. Other than changing tires, I’m not sure it needs maintenance. Oh ya, windshield fluid refilling. But gas guzzlers? Oil changes, spark plugs, fuel filters, timing belts, a million little things to replace. I’ve spent a small fortune getting gas guzzlers repaired over the past 35 years. Not going back there. But most of my neighbors drive giant gas guzzling SUVs. With gas in California nearly $7 a gallon, they must be paying thousands of dollars each month in fuel costs alone, not to mention all the service costs. But, let’s face it, if you love the smell of carbon monoxide in your lungs, you’ve got to have your fix.

All that said, I can’t stand Musk or his politics. Hope he doesn’t flush Twitter down the toilet. Last I heard, he wants to move its headquarters to Texas. I’d love to get a different EV. BMW? Are you listening? Stop with this silly i3 nonsense and produce a real EV!
I like Teslas but I’m such a Porsche nut I would prefer a Taycan. ;)

I think you should give Elon some time to sort things out at Twitter. So far he has done an admirable job of restoring balance to the discussion. It was really horrible how the prior admin banned conservatives. Let’s hear from both sides now and have a good debate.
 
@Lee
“I think you should give Elon some time to sort things out at Twitter. So far he has done an admirable job of restoring balance to the discussion. It was really horrible how the prior admin banned conservatives. Let’s hear from both sides now and have a good debate”
Agreed.
Charles
 
It's basically everyone just yelling at each other now more than ever and that will continue as civility is discouraged but it's his toy to play with... but it's no matter to me. I use twitter for sports news. If the sports networks decide to go to another platform to break news, then I won't use it anymore. What you call restoring balance is just the free market at work. He thinks bringing everyone in will make the platform more profitable. If it makes it less profitable he'll just go back to the way it was. Arrogance brought down the last president when he could have had a moment with Covid leadership. Had he gotten in front of the country and led like Bush did after 9/11, he'd have won re-election easily. Same thing will ultimately happen to Musk if the only ones advertising there are the pillow guy and some vitamin scams.
Moderators, no politics??
 
There seems to be a fairly solid consensus (Lucasz Ficus, LL21, Al M, etc.) that CD playback or computer file playback, or perhaps both, sound better than streaming (assuming, of course, that all other variables, including the DAC, are held constant).

But I assume that one cannot assume that any device that can spin a CD necessarily will achieve better sound quality than will streaming.

So how good a CD transport does one need to achieve CD playback which sounds better than streaming? Where do the lines (rising sound quality of better transport and streaming sound quality) cross?
IMO there are fundamentally two questions to ask (or so implied above):

1) At what cost point does a CD transport sonically outpace a streamer / streaming setup? -- Cost / performance
2) What is ultimately the best sound quality - the best CD transport versus the best streamer / streaming setup? -- Cost - no - object to date best

A few assumptions - "CD transport" = no DAC included, "streaming" = necessary component(s) to stream (e.g.: stand - alone streamer, music PC + external streamer, etc.).

IME for #1 I would say streaming has come a long way in the last ~5 years toward better sound / $ and better overall sonics. So wherever the cost point is it's a moving target in favor of streaming as there's more to gain and more development occurring vs. transports.

For #2 I simply can't comment as I haven't heard the best of each. Maybe a solid data point would be to bring the best available CD transport to Mike L.'s house and compare to the Wadax. :)
 
IMO there are fundamentally two questions to ask (or so implied above):

1) At what cost point does a CD transport sonically outpace a streamer / streaming setup? -- Cost / performance
2) What is ultimately the best sound quality - the best CD transport versus the best streamer / streaming setup? -- Cost - no - object to date best

A few assumptions - "CD transport" = no DAC included, "streaming" = necessary component(s) to stream (e.g.: stand - alone streamer, music PC + external streamer, etc.).

IME for #1 I would say streaming has come a long way in the last ~5 years toward better sound / $ and better overall sonics. So wherever the cost point is it's a moving target in favor of streaming as there's more to gain and more development occurring vs. transports.

For #2 I simply can't comment as I haven't heard the best of each. Maybe a solid data point would be to bring the best available CD transport to Mike L.'s house and compare to the Wadax. :)

I'd be happy to bring my 'Bits Ain't Bits' digital over to MikeL's!! I've been wanting to get out for a West Coast Audio Junket since before Covid and I even think I reached out to Mike last year about a visit.

However, maybe we would need (at least) one more pair of ears in this, currently hypothetical, exercise.

I would offer only my State of the Art digital delivery system and an insatiable apatite for learning*

* I would also offer something very rare and dear to my heart - a bottle of my favorite 40+ year old whisky from my personal collection.;)
 
IMO there are fundamentally two questions to ask (or so implied above):

1) At what cost point does a CD transport sonically outpace a streamer / streaming setup? -- Cost / performance

A CD transport is part of a digital system that includes a DAC. We can only evaluate the pair - a transport can sound great with a DAC and average with another DAC. I have owned the Metronome Calyspo/Kalista - great sound with their brand DACs, the Vivaldi transport eclipsed it in the Vivaldi DAC. The Metronome DAC sounded poor with the Vivaldi transport.
The Kondo KSL DAC preferred the belt drives CECs. Unfortunately my Taiko Extreme does not have the AES/EBU card I can not connect it to good vintage DACs.

2) What is ultimately the best sound quality - the best CD transport versus the best streamer / streaming setup? -- Cost - no - object to date best

Since long we know there is no "best", just preferred in some particular circumstances.

A few assumptions - "CD transport" = no DAC included, "streaming" = necessary component(s) to stream (e.g.: stand - alone streamer, music PC + external streamer, etc.).

IME for #1 I would say streaming has come a long way in the last ~5 years toward better sound / $ and better overall sonics. So wherever the cost point is it's a moving target in favor of streaming as there's more to gain and more development occurring vs. transports.

As always, demand also rules what designers create. Metronome last transport and DAC are considered better sounding than previous models. But as far as I know no one is wanting to pay such prices for physical CD systems.

For #2 I simply can't comment as I haven't heard the best of each. Maybe a solid data point would be to bring the best available CD transport to Mike L.'s house and compare to the Wadax. :)

Assuming we accept the idea that someone considers a particular CD transport the best, most probably the Wadax would sound better. The Wadax, as other top digital systems. is tuned for an absence of digital artifacts and has its own sound signature. The top CD transports are highly tuned devices and have strong sound signatures - I do not expect them to match the Wadax by hazard. Also I am assuming that transports have an SPDIF link and the Wadax is not optimized for such intrisically jitter channel - some SPDIF DACs add separate clock signals to get a jitter free system. The Zanden transport that LLoyd loves can not be connected to the Wadax is its best sounding mode.
 
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I like Teslas but I’m such a Porsche nut I would prefer a Taycan. ;)

I think you should give Elon some time to sort things out at Twitter. So far he has done an admirable job of restoring balance to the discussion. It was really horrible how the prior admin banned conservatives. Let’s hear from both sides now and have a good debate.
huh? He is contemplating bankruptcy on a 40-billion-dollar purchase.
 
For #2 I simply can't comment as I haven't heard the best of each. Maybe a solid data point would be to bring the best available CD transport to Mike L.'s house and compare to the Wadax. :)
I can comment because I own the Esoteric Grandioso CD/SACD transport. Streaming is getting very close to what the Esoteric can do. And you don't have to spend $50K on network audio hardware to get there.
 
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huh? He is contemplating bankruptcy on a 40-billion-dollar purchase.
In your own signature, the Jefferson quote is a favorite of mine…I went to UVA. Let’s take TJ’s advice and let him create a balanced field of varying opinions. Elon is just trying to bring back conservatives and others unfairly treated via ban, shadow ban, etc.

I don’t think bankruptcy for twitter is in the cards…at least not yet. I do think he paid at a very high valuation but I also have learned the most personally from papers and comments on twitter so I think it would be bad for the globe if it went away.
 
I'd be happy to bring my 'Bits Ain't Bits' digital over to MikeL's!! I've been wanting to get out for a West Coast Audio Junket since before Covid and I even think I reached out to Mike last year about a visit.

However, maybe we would need (at least) one more pair of ears in this, currently hypothetical, exercise.

I would offer only my State of the Art digital delivery system and an insatiable apatite for learning*

* I would also offer something very rare and dear to my heart - a bottle of my favorite 40+ year old whisky from my personal collection.;)
any time; you would be welcome.

no 40+ year old here, but i do enjoy a bit of single malt from time to time. nothing too dear. i'm a sipper once or twice a month at most.

i have discussed getting a Wadax transport in home at some point in the future to try. nothing set just talk so far.
 
In your own signature, the Jefferson quote is a favorite of mine…I went to UVA. Let’s take TJ’s advice and let him create a balanced field of varying opinions. Elon is just trying to bring back conservatives and others unfairly treated via ban, shadow ban, etc.

I don’t think bankruptcy for twitter is in the cards…at least not yet. I do think he paid at a very high valuation but I also have learned the most personally from papers and comments on twitter so I think it would be bad for the globe if it went away.
"The error of opinion must be tolerated." Of course, a problem exists when you try to present your opinion as fact. To put it bluntly you can get on your soap box and say whatever you like. But you have no right to stand on mine.
It is not I, but Elon must who said they were headed to bankruptcy. He has no idea how he is going to make those monthly interest payments.
Edit: to quote James Obrien presenter on LBC radio...2+2=6 is not an opinion. It is just wrong.
 
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"The error of opinion must be tolerated." Of course, a problem exists when you try to present your opinion as fact. To put it bluntly you can get on your soap box and say whatever you like. But you have no right to stand on mine.
It is not I, but Elon must who said they were headed to bankruptcy. He has no idea how he is going to make those monthly interest payments.
Where did I stand on your soapbox?
 
I have had no direct interaction with the Cambridge transport. @facten gave his listening experience as a former Cambridge owner.

He said what other owners of this transport have said, it’s very good value for the money but can certainly be improved upon. It’s often compared with the Audiolab 6000CDT which is another high value 600.00USD transport.

The CD transports I discussed earlier are 4 to 8x more costly. However, many who are familiar with them believe their higher level of sound quality justifies the higher expense.

So, it will depend on one’s budget comfort level and how far they want to pursue upper tier CD sound quality. Redbook CD is very important to me. I know how terrific it can sound via high-quality transports and DACs.
The higher level, better sounding transports are worth every penny as far as I am concerned.
Charles
I have personal experience with the Cambridge CXC transport as does my neighbor with a $500,000 system. I returned mine and he sold his. The Cambridge (sorry) was among the worst. Maybe the Audiolab is better but an Emotiva CD player (models 2 and 4 tested) bested the Cambridge by a large margin (latter was thin sounding, minimal bass and minimal depth). Audiogon has a very similar discussion on CD players with charles1dad offering great advice on transports!
 
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