How Good a CD Transport is Required to Sound Better than Streaming?

Tuckia

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Much truth in that… I was thinking it’s the human derived metadata tagging in combination with my own (also human kinda) previous choices that are determining the options that come to me when in Roon radio but I’m certainly no tech in this… either way I get much good previously unknown to me music being offered up in radio mode at any rate… but always the choice to play, continue, save or deny is not in the hands of any other idiot but myself :eek:. Just as in audio all the very best and worst of my choices are my own.
Roon Radio. Or the transport random track function. Hmmm. Maybe the 5-disc tray! Woot, woot. Blow my mind.
 

Alrainbow

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Dec 11, 2013
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All I c
Hmmm.…So what exactly is the Roon recommendation algorithm doing? I didn’t want to bring my personal background into this, but since it’s relevant, I have worked in AI research for 35 years (long before the tech companies got interested in AI). Recommendation algorithms by and large fit very simple statistical models to usage data. In short: they are dumb!

Geek discussion warning: let’s take Netflix as an example. You have a giant matrIx whose rows are users and whose columns are movies. The matrix entries are ratings. The matrix is extremely sparse, as most entries are zero. There are hundreds of thousands of programs to watch. Each user of Netflix barely watches a tiny percentage of the available choices. In this formulation, the recommendation problem is called matrix completion. Seems a hopeless problem: only a tiny percentage of entries are non-zero. Enter some cool math on what is called low-rank matrix completion. This assumption allows you to fill in the missing entries. I will skip the math — it involves ideas related to compressed sensing that incidentally can be used to create efficient digital codecs far better than FLAC.

But, here’s the main point. The Roon recommendation algorithm, like the Netflix method, has no clue what it is recommending. Books, movies, music, shopping behavior on Amazon — all use the same technology. All it cares about is the user data, which is just a highly sparse matrix. The algorithm cares nothing about the content. It knows nothing of the content.

So, unlike the FM music host, who is a trained professional in classical music or jazz, the Roon algorithm, like the Netflix algorithm is ”artificially stupid”. Next time you hear an article on AI, mentally replace the word “intelligence” with “stupidity” and you’ll get an accurate picture of the current state of the technology (I say this as someone who has spent his entire career in the field). We’d like to create an artificial music or movie critic, a program that actually listens to music or watches movies and forms its opinions. We have no clue how to do this since it involves solving the AI problem, which no matter what the hype you hear on the web, is many decades away from being solved.
all I can say is to me it works well. I find many new albums or new artists each week. somehow I like there choices
then I seek them out
now maybe it’s just new so good I’m not sure
 
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Alrainbow

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Look
It's funny how the thread went from a $1000 CD to Wadax.

I like to compare products on a value basis. If we want to look at a realistic transport such as a Jays Audio unit priced at $5000, what sort of streaming system would we be comparing it too. Lets make sure to include the modem, router and switch as well as any power supplies. Plus the cabling between these devices to the DAC.

In a $5000 price category, I don't think there are many streamer that would compare to the Jays Transport. I believe we would be looking at a high quality Endpoint.

Then we have to consider the DAC. The Jays transport utilizes the SPDIF/AES input. The streamer uses the USB. I hear time and time again its diffucult to isolate and power a USB card compared to SPDIF/AES. And USB cables are fsr more expensive than SPDIF.

I have not tried the Jays transport, but the maker of my DAC says hands down the Jays outperforms any streamer. Even with the latest JCat USB card powered internally with a dedicated power supply.

How much all this changes when you step into a $50K DAC and $35k streamer I don't know. But the OP was looking for premium sound quality on a budget. Not ease of use. Sound quality. I would make a nod to a good transport over a streamer at the entry level of market.

FWIW, a friend of mine has a transport and he says there is a limitless supply of varied CD for sale in used shops for $2. So the media is fairly inexpensive. And with the push to streaming and vinyl, will most likely become more affordable as time goes on.
closely it always does
if you post a 3k deck it’s has to outdone by a 30k one lol.
how much
is pride of ownership and how much can be quantified as Better
next comes how long one has compared and hears less color lol
i do plan to buy a transport it won’t be a 3 or 5k one
it will be an esoteric with a dac inside but also one who’s transport is also good.
why cause st shows they sound good to me
so 10k or more
I for one cannot live with myself to spend more.
it’s just me of course
 
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Alrainbow

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I can see this Elliot
I too have listened to CD's versus the rips I have done to my hard drive and I no longer care about playing discs.
I still don't get why people have such a hard time realizing that things change and perhaps there could be a better solution.
I have tried using a few quality Cd players and or transports versus the hard drive...I don't have them any longer.
My first statement when I first got my Wadax still applies , it is a transcendent product and one that redefines IMO what is possible in digital playback.
I can see this Elliot it’s just such refined product to be accurate
years back msb had this sound to me
now wadax clearly owns this completely
I think anyone who owns this lineup would have a hard time understanding less lol. It’s just that realistic when I heard it
 
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Alrainbow

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32 TB of music and I use Roon tidal most always
when I do fine some new exceptional stuff I then look in my local to see if I own it
if not I buy it and it to me does sound better to me.
 

audiobomber

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I was thinking more in the US$1,000 range.

I owned the previous top of the line Cambridge CD1 Discmagic transport and IsoMagic DAC. I replaced them with an Audiolab 8300CD. IMO, Audiolab is more of a high end company than Cambridge.

The Audiolab 9000CDT would be an easy choice for me in your price range. Note that it includes error correction and vibration control, important features in a transport.
 

Tuckia

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Something less rhetorical. And not Best vs. Best.

Starting in 2015, this has been my server progression. All CD's have been ripped to the NAS and then server. In total over 50,000 tracks.

Aurender N100H
Aurender N10
Antipodes CX/EX
Antipodes K50
Taiko Extreme

At no time did I own a transport that came close to the SQ of whatever my current server was. I did not own top flight transports. Sometimes just DVD or CD player spdif outputs. I didn't own any of the affordable transports mentioned here. Currently my best transport is an Oppo 105D. It is squarely in the meh camp. Nothing special.

However, the only sonic attribute where the transport made me question the server du jour, was tone color. Then there is the SQ of Roon itself.

These early Aurenders have a grayness of tone. I still have an N100h, which squarely blows the Oppo away in all but tone color, when run through my Lampi Horizon. (Note: this is through the usb ouput, the N100h's only output, through a $3500 Shunyata Omega usb, the Oppo had a nothing special spdif cable).

With the K50 the tone color was good, especially through the spdif out, and the issue was put to bed for me.

If just starting out with 1000's of cd's which are not ripped, and a budget under say $3k, a transport could make sense for SQ reasons, IMO.
 
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Alrainbow

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Something less rhetorical. And not Best vs. Best.

Starting in 2015, this has been my server progression. All CD's have been ripped to the NAS and then server. In total over 50,000 tracks.

Aurender N100H
Aurender N10
Antipodes CX/EX
Antipodes K50
Taiko Extreme

At no time did I own a transport that came close to the SQ of whatever my current server was. I did not own top flight transports. Sometimes just DVD or CD player spdif outputs. I didn't own any of the affordable transports mentioned here. Currently my best transport is an Oppo 105D. It is squarely in the meh camp. Nothing special.

However, the only sonic attribute where the transport made me question the server du jour, was tone color. Then there is the SQ of Roon itself.

These early Aurenders have a grayness of tone. I still have an N100h, which squarely blows the Oppo away in all but tone color, when run through my Lampi Horizon. (Note: this is through the usb ouput, the N100h's only output, through a $3500 Shunyata Omega usb, the Oppo had a nothing special spdif cable).

With the K50 the tone color was good, especially through the spdif out, and the issue was put to bed for me.

If just starting out with 1000's of cd's which are not ripped, and a budget under say $3k, a transport could make sense for SQ reasons, IMO.
The dac matters here
some dacs reclock spidif some don’t
this makes a big difference
one reason is jitter most ur many cd players are poor transports
next is fixation on I2S as an output
spidif is fine and better in most cases
next is if the dac does not reclock a ext spidif reclocker helps big time.
from the many trials I did any given cd player or transport had its own sound
mostly more weighted
more powerful sounding
also sone have noise and grunge
an ext re clocker helps this.
red book is more noisy most times where hi Rez is less so
so cd is bigger bolder a bit less detailed
hi Rez more softer more detailed
what’s correct I have no idea but I think any of us should have a cd transport as a source
to compare
for a server just has many advantages in that many more available sources are to be had.
it took me a few years to build a better server to best my msb cd transport
but once I did it still was good to use as tweeks continue
 
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Tuckia

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Yes.
 

rando

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I don't know if I have that on mine. Does it require any device that did not come with the car? A phone or some other computer?

Typically in the modern era you would be looking at a SIM card and mobile data plan with inboard storage drive. Porsche exceeds expectations in other ways.

I believe you have an older iPhone which should allow loading the correct app(s). Theoretically you should then be able to connect it through BlueTooth or a USB and use it here.
 

Lee

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I don't know if I have that on mine. Does it require any device that did not come with the car? A phone or some other computer?
Yes, you need a phone. I have An iPhone 13 Pro. The Tidal and Qobuz apps pop up on CarPlay automatically. I connect the phone over USB but you can use Bluetooth. I think USB sounds better.
 
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Kingrex

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I went looking with my wife at Macan. I wanted the electric shipping in 2023. I was told a year ago it was $85K. Now there is no known price and you have to drop $20k on deposit or your out till 2025 to get one.

Then he says they are moving to solid state battery in 2030 with twice the range, no precious metals and lower cost. So why get a Lithium car that will dump in value.

Now I'm wondering about a gas powered S.
 

tima

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Yes, you need a phone. I have An iPhone 13 Pro. The Tidal and Qobuz apps pop up on CarPlay automatically. I connect the phone over USB but you can use Bluetooth. I think USB sounds better.

Thank you for that info, Lee. Sounds straightforward if one has an iphone.

Typically in the modern era you would be looking at a SIM card and mobile data plan with inboard storage drive. Porsche exceeds expectations in other ways.

I believe you have an older iPhone which should allow loading the correct app(s). Theoretically you should then be able to connect it through BlueTooth or a USB and use it here.

I've never had an iPhone. Apple stuff looks nice and works very well with itself. I was heavily exposed to it at university. It is too proprietary for my taste and expires at Apple's whim. I had an iPad once but after a few years it started slowing down. I just checked and Porsche does not support android auto. Although it is something of a hassle, I'll continue putting music on an SD card as mp3 off of CDs.

[
 
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godofwealth

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Basically, Roon Radio is for the musical dilettante, folks who want a broad sampling of different kinds of music, but not go too deep into any one specific genre. In my book, the true music lover and collector is usually someone who wants to get deep into one genre, and usually spends their entire life collecting obscure records from that genre. Such a person usually has a barebones system, and the bulk of their time and money goes into their record collection.

I can think of no finer example of this breed than Joe Bussard, the ultimate collector of obscure folk music, most of which is not only not on Roon, but heck is not even on 33 rpm vinyl, but only on impossible to find 78 rpm records. For 70 years, Bussard has spent his entire life chasing down rare 78 rpm records of obscure folk music, wading through streams, walking up forests and doing whatever it takes to find that ultra rare record. Most of his huge collection is so rare that he might possess the only copy in existence. The Smithsonian has had their eyes for decades on his priceless collection. But old man Joe, he’s 85, and he’s going nowhere. Plays his rare 78 rpm vinyl on Technics record players on a single ancient mono Altec Laguna speaker — why waste silly money on a stereo when all his records are mono anyway.

Ladies and gentleman, here is a true music lover, perhaps the last of his breed, a true American original. For such a person, Roon Radio can never suffice to quench his thirst.


 
I have been fortunate enough to test this personally at the entry level and top end for CEC player, transport, and DAC products using Tidal and Qobuz. I would suggest it gets difficult to tell if it is a CD or streaming given the streaming is a direct copy of the CD. Yet I agree, high resolution streaming can sound better. However, I think this has more to do with who did the mastering and what system/software was used in the process. In addition, whether or not the person who did the mastering likes the music or is it just a job makes a difference in the resultant product. This is seen even in Vinyl where some mastering of the same recording ends up with some vinyl being more highly sought after. When you just study the same recording mastered to high resolution by several different people the results are different, there will probably not be agreement within a group "what is best".

Just to top it all off, when you add personal preferences, across a population to the mix, you will not find agreement over whether or not a particular mastering is the best, but you will find one mastering being more popular. I am reminded of most music in the 70's being mastered to sound good in a car and the mastering's for radio stations and retail sound different.

During a period when I was studying cable design, I discovered with a good enough system, it was possible to tell when a production house changed recording and mastering equipment with the same engineer. Hmmm

If you consider just the CD playback mechanism, then the choice between direct drive or belt drive has consequences. Head design even though most look exactly the same may not be identical, the devil is in the detail. However, they maybe interchangeable, but have different performance. In short, belt drive be can expected to have less noise then direct drive. Belt drive can have more accurate streaming due to being able to hold a more constant reading velocity. CEC uses a belt drive mechanism which increases the distant between the drive motors and the laser pickup head reducing EMF interference at the laser head. CEC uses a heavy stabilizer and belt drive to reduce the motor torque which in turn reduces mechanical vibrations in the system and holds a more constant read velocity. The choice of CD transports mechanisms will make a difference in this analysis. Hmmm

CEC adds more option to this question at the middle and upper end products with there "SuperLink" data transport link. SuperLink essentially turns the transport into a slave of the DAC and transmits each of the data, clock and timing signals on sperate cables rather than combine them as in all the other signal transmission methods. With the addition of a external clock the question gets even more complicated.

As a result I would suggest just find something you are happy with and not get caught up in what is better (physical media or streaming) to much because the mastering makes so much difference. After all, isn't the real question "what is best" for you. Personally, I am be happy with it alll!!! Happy listening!
 

audiobomber

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Oct 13, 2020
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Sudbury ON, Canada
The common opinion among audiophiles is that streaming a local file sounds better than the same file from the internet. That has certainly been my experience, in my system and a friend's pricier system, streaming Amazon Unlimited and Tidal (no Qobuz in Canada).

I believe CD from a good transport vs. streaming a local 16/44.1 file can be equally great, but the streaming system will cost more to get to the same performance level. A hi-res file will sound better than CD, given the same mastering. Some hi-res files are re-mastered, and that can go either way.
 
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Mike Lavigne

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I went looking with my wife at Macan. I wanted the electric shipping in 2023. I was told a year ago it was $85K. Now there is no known price and you have to drop $20k on deposit or your out till 2025 to get one.

Then he says they are moving to solid state battery in 2030 with twice the range, no precious metals and lower cost. So why get a Lithium car that will dump in value.

Now I'm wondering about a gas powered S.
reality about the myth of an all electric future. need a genie to deliver what politicians are legislating/promising. 'feel good' electric cars are just that. their actual carbon equation is debatable. and the power grid is maybe 30-40 years away, by then it might be hydrogen/fuel cell anyway. a hundred years from now that will be where things go.

no one knows.
 

rando

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The common opinion among audiophiles is that streaming a local file sounds better than the same file from the internet. That has certainly been my experience, in my system and a friend's pricier system, streaming Amazon Unlimited and Tidal (no Qobuz in Canada).

I believe CD from a good transport vs. streaming a local 16/44.1 file can be equally great, but the streaming system will cost more to get to the same performance level. A hi-res file will sound better than CD, given the same mastering. Some hi-res files are re-mastered, and that can go either way.

Technically, all high res files files are different mastering than CD. I do understand your meaning was using the same equipment and intent to preserve what is present on the disc in some cases and not in others.



Side note: It has always amused me how many items have been made into playable records. Whereas I've never encountered a single instance of someone making something equivalent to a compact disc out of ordinary items without industrial equipment.
 

wil

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Jul 22, 2015
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Basically, Roon Radio is for the musical dilettante, folks who want a broad sampling of different kinds of music, but not go too deep into any one specific genre. In my book, the true music lover and collector is usually someone who wants to get deep into one genre, and usually spends their entire life collecting obscure records from that genre. Such a person usually has a barebones system, and the bulk of their time and money goes into their record collection.

I can think of no finer example of this breed than Joe Bussard, the ultimate collector of obscure folk music, most of which is not only not on Roon, but heck is not even on 33 rpm vinyl, but only on impossible to find 78 rpm records. For 70 years, Bussard has spent his entire life chasing down rare 78 rpm records of obscure folk music, wading through streams, walking up forests and doing whatever it takes to find that ultra rare record. Most of his huge collection is so rare that he might possess the only copy in existence. The Smithsonian has had their eyes for decades on his priceless collection. But old man Joe, he’s 85, and he’s going nowhere. Plays his rare 78 rpm vinyl on Technics record players on a single ancient mono Altec Laguna speaker — why waste silly money on a stereo when all his records are mono anyway.

Ladies and gentleman, here is a true music lover, perhaps the last of his breed, a true American original. For such a person, Roon Radio can never suffice to quench his thirst.


I admire the late Joe Bussard and his single minded deep dive into early American music. He's saved a lot of recorded music that would have disappeared. I suspect he knows more about his little corner of music than anyone on earth. I enjoyed hearing him mention playing with and recording early John Fahey.

But I suppose the other side of a deep obsession can be a narrowing of perspective. He doesn't seem to be able to understand or appreciate music outside his chosen obsession. Hi comments to the effect of "no good country music after 1955" or "jazz died during the depression" reflect someone who is full of opinion but closed to truly understanding music outside his expertise.

All music springs from the same well. The particular music he loved came from the British Isles and Africa -- I wonder if he was even interested in the origins of his "original" American music. A "true" music lover? I don't think so...
 

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