How Good a CD Transport is Required to Sound Better than Streaming?

There seems to be a fairly solid consensus (Lucasz Ficus, LL21, Al M, etc.) that CD playback or computer file playback, or perhaps both, sound better than streaming (assuming, of course, that all other variables, including the DAC, are held constant).

But I assume that one cannot assume that any device that can spin a CD necessarily will achieve better sound quality than will streaming.

So how good a CD transport does one need to achieve CD playback which sounds better than streaming? Where do the lines (rising sound quality of better transport and streaming sound quality) cross?

 

Perhaps the ripper you use is faulty? I have never come across this issue. Do you use AccurateRip?

No, his Cd transport is too good. that's the problem. I very well know how CEC TL0 sounds, it's amazing. I listened to it hundreds of hours.

 

No, his Cd transport is too good. that's the problem. I very well know how CEC TL0 sounds, it's amazing. I listened to it hundreds of hours.

Too good for what? I questioned the quality of his CD rips, I did not question the quality of his CD playback.

 

There could also be issues with file playback.

 

Too good for what? I questioned the quality of his CD rips, I did not question the quality of his CD playback.

Too good for any rip to beat. Been there done that and CEC TL0 is not the only transport. There are many good Cd transports (eg. Zanden 2000 which I also listened many hours) hard to beat. BTW I thoroughly used EAC, dBpoweramp, XLD and still using them. The most importing thing is setting drive parameters right as well as read offset. Write offset is also very important if you want to make a 1:1 copy of the Cd and using Mitsui gold CD-R (MAM-A or even better MOFI).

 

Too good for any rip to beat. Been there done that and CEC TL0 is not the only transport. There are many good Cd transports (eg. Zanden 2000 which I also listened many hours) hard to beat. BTW I thoroughly used EAC, dBpoweramp, XLD and still using them. The most importing thing is setting drive parameters right as well as read offset. Write offset is also very important if you want to make a 1:1 copy of the Cd and using Mitsui gold CD-R (MAM-A or even better MOFI).

OK, so in your experience, the CEC TL0 is the best you've heard CDs, compared to whatever you used for file playback. I'm happy for you. But it changes nothing to my original point.

 

OK, so in your experience, the CEC TL0 is the best you've heard CDs, compared to whatever you used for file playback. I'm happy for you. But it changes nothing to my original point.

Assuming you're able to achieve good Cd rips, against which Cd transports did you compare them to think there must be something wrong with @godofwealth Cd ripping in order him to have better results with CEC TL0? And with which dacs?

 

Assuming you're able to achieve good Cd rips, against which Cd transports did you compare them to think there must be something wrong with @godofwealth Cd ripping in order him to have better results with CEC TL0? And with which dacs?

Your question is irrelevant, and your logic is flawed. godofwealth did not just state that CD playback was "better" - he specifically stated that in his opinion CD ripping generated errors, which he (well, his wife) could hear. I've heard CD ripping errors, at times, and things have to be terribly wrong to hear them. You don't need a CEC player to hear them, and you don't need years of training either, as he conveniently claims. The most obvious thing is to ensure that your CD ripping is accurate, which he did not state that he did.

 

Your question is irrelevant, and your logic is flawed. godofwealth did not just state that CD playback was "better" - he specifically stated that in his opinion CD ripping generated errors, which he (well, his wife) could hear.

Then please read the below comments of @godofwealth again.

I find playback of ripped CDs from a hard drive distinctly inferior to actual CD playback from my CEC TL0.

Playing ripped CDs or SACDs, which I do often, is a convenient solution but it incurs a sonic degradation.

The best SACD playback is from a high quality SACD transport (e.g., Esoteric, or even Oppo). The ripped DSD files seem to sound worse to my ears.

I don't know how clearly he can state it than these.

My spouse has far better hearing than I do at my age (biology is not kind to men in their 60s!) and can instantly tell if I’m playing a physical CD or playing a ripped track.

or this.

 

Then please read the below comments of @godofwealth again.



I don't know how clearly he can state it than these.


or this.

Right back at you:

"I find playback of ripped CDs from a hard drive distinctly inferior to actual CD playback from my CEC TL0. CD ripping involves spinning a CD ROM at high speeds (often 20-30x) that seems to incur a far higher level of read errors requiring much higher Reed Solomon error correction. In the worst case, these are audible clicks when the ripper was unable to correct errors. Playing ripped CDs or SACDs, which I do often, is a convenient solution but it incurs a sonic degradation. As the saying goes, what the Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away."

So the obvious questions are:

- was the CD ripped with AccurateRip verification? Could the CD ripper be defective?

- could there possibly be issues with the file playback?

Anyway, it's not that important - if he is happing playing CDs with his CEC.

 

So the obvious questions are:

- was the CD ripped with AccurateRip verification? Could the CD ripper be effective?

- could there possibly be issues with the file playback?

Only obvious thing is if you have known how CEC TL0 or other top transports sound like you wouldn't ask those questions in the first place.

 

Only obvious thing is if you have known how CEC TL0 or other top transports sound like you wouldn't ask those questions in the first place.

Right. This sounds like conspiracy theory rather than rational thinking.

 

One can only form opinions in high end audio based on long experience. I vividly remember getting my first portable Sony Discman in the late 1980s and thinking that this simple portable CD player was the best possible sound one could get. In fact if you own CDs from that period, they all came with that slogan — best possible sound or words to that effect. When I hooked up the Discman to my then modest grad student home stereo, I was horrified to hear how bad it sounded. Completely lacking in dynamics and sounded throttled and compressed. I learned an early lesson in not trusting manufacturer’s specifications, a lesson that’s been reinforced many times over in the past few decades. I have a PhD in computer science, taught for many years at one of the world’s leading PhD program in CS, taken graduate level courses in digital signal processing and I’m wonky enough that I can pretty much grok any DSP math paper. But that doesn’t mean I ignore what my ears tell me. If it doesn’t sound “right” to my ears, that’s all the “proof” I need. Your views might differ. Plenty of folks on audiosciencereview.com believe the only thing that matters is SINAD distortion. If a DAC has better SINAD measurements, it’s better, period. They conveniently ignore the reality that even the world’s worst DAC has a million times lower distortion than the world’s best loudspeaker or headphone. SINAD tells you very little. But if you think SINAD is all that matters, you can save yourself a ton of money, buy a $300 DAC from Topping or one of the many similar brands and be done with it. I actually have one of those DACs and listen to it once in a while to remind myself why SINAD means zilch. It’s my own view developed over decades of listening. Nothing more.

 

One can only form opinions in high end audio based on long experience.

honestly; i don't agree that decades of techie experience has much to do validating how streaming and CD music reproduction performance compare. it might allow you to answer techie history questions, and articulate your opinions with details others cannot. and that has value to help us all understand technology as far as that goes. but not much use choosing the best sounding alternatives.

i don't mean to be disrespectful to your work in these fields. we all get the benefit of people moving the technology forward. thank you.

more valuable would be keeping up with the highest state of the art digital music reproduction performance, and having in system analog references to gauge digital music performance progress. some would also say live music listening experience is very valuable.

ultimately it's the listening opinions that count. those experiences. what did you hear? in what context?

not how we got here, and not how stuff works.

just my 2 cents.

But that doesn’t mean I ignore what my ears tell me. If it doesn’t sound “right” to my ears, that’s all the “proof” I need.

100% agree.

 

One can only form opinions in high end audio based on long experience. I vividly remember getting my first portable Sony Discman in the late 1980s and thinking that this simple portable CD player was the best possible sound one could get. In fact if you own CDs from that period, they all came with that slogan — best possible sound or words to that effect. When I hooked up the Discman to my then modest grad student home stereo, I was horrified to hear how bad it sounded. Completely lacking in dynamics and sounded throttled and compressed. I learned an early lesson in not trusting manufacturer’s specifications, a lesson that’s been reinforced many times over in the past few decades. I have a PhD in computer science, taught for many years at one of the world’s leading PhD program in CS, taken graduate level courses in digital signal processing and I’m wonky enough that I can pretty much grok any DSP math paper. But that doesn’t mean I ignore what my ears tell me. If it doesn’t sound “right” to my ears, that’s all the “proof” I need. Your views might differ. Plenty of folks on audiosciencereview.com believe the only thing that matters is SINAD distortion. If a DAC has better SINAD measurements, it’s better, period. They conveniently ignore the reality that even the world’s worst DAC has a million times lower distortion than the world’s best loudspeaker or headphone. SINAD tells you very little. But if you think SINAD is all that matters, you can save yourself a ton of money, buy a $300 DAC from Topping or one of the many similar brands and be done with it. I actually have one of those DACs and listen to it once in a while to remind myself why SINAD means zilch. It’s my own view developed over decades of listening. Nothing more.

If this is a reply to my questions about CD ripping then it is completely off topic. I'm sorry if you took my questions as personal attacks - they were not. By the way, I don't care about measurements, I just listen, like you do, and I've been doing that all my life, as everyone else here surely has.