How many of you are interested in Vintage Horn Speakers?

Audiophile Bill

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2015
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#42
Latest data on the website says 116db! Extreme...
Yeah and that is the “standard” BD4 driver. Filip does “extras” to that driver via an upgrade programme. The General’s drivers are around 3dB more than the standard spec - very extreme! He also has some new ones arriving this week.
 
Aug 25, 2010
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Destiny
#43
"Latest data on the website says 116db! Extreme... "

Do you want to buy a bridge??? Really over what bandwidth is a single 8" fullrange driver in a back loaded horn going to deliver that??

Rob:eek:
 
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thomask

Active Member
Dec 9, 2018
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#45
"Latest data on the website says 116db! Extreme... "

Do you want to buy a bridge??? Really over what bandwidth is a single 8" fullrange driver in a back loaded horn going to deliver that??

Rob:eek:
I had used Full range speaker driven by 300B SET amp for 6 years.

But it has a limitation of bandwidth and dynamics although mid range is coherent.

It is very unlikely for me to go back to full range speaker again because of its limitation.
 
Aug 25, 2010
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Destiny
#46
"But it has a limitation of bandwidth and dynamics although mid range is coherent."

Yes if you look at a compression driver which can have a nominal efficiency of 30% it's over a limited bandwidth and typically around 111dB and that's on a horn. Direct radiators are typically well bellow that say 104 and again over a limited bandwidth. 116dB is a crazy high number for a single driver system over a wide bandwidth compared to say either a high efficiency woofer or compression driver.

Rob:)
 
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Tango

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Mar 12, 2017
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#47
I had used Full range speaker driven by 300B SET amp for 6 years.

But it has a limitation of bandwidth and dynamics although mid range is coherent.

It is very unlikely for me to go back to full range speaker again because of its limitation.
What full range speakers were you using with your 300b? :confused:

Regards,
Tang
 

thomask

Active Member
Dec 9, 2018
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#48
What full range speakers were you using with your 300b? :confused:

Regards,
Tang
Enclosure was made by my friend and its unit was 4.5 inch brand unit but I do not remember the name

I had been happy with Lansche 4.1 which has excellent dynamics and good extension since 2007.

Its active bass units have no problem with crossing over passive mid range driver with fast transients.
 
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bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#49

kodomo

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Apr 26, 2017
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#51
116db efficiency is a little vague. I would really like to know more about its details and would love to see some measurements. What is the bandwidth for that efficiency. I don't know about the bd4 but it has to have an average of 110db efficiency throughout the audio band which is something I have never personally heard from a direct radiator. You can have high efficiency (mostly compression drivers are around this much efficiency) but having high efficiency and a wide range stable response is very, very rare. If you can have high efficiency with a stable response and extension, there is not much of a need for low efficiency drivers.

If they have somehow built a driver and matched its uneven response to the backloaded and the front horn perfectly then congrats. Maybe the BD4 has around 6db dips where just the horn loads and makes up for them... Or maybe the response is ragged but having the horn load, hearing the details etc. makes up for these. I see on the forum, Devore Orangutan being called coherent and even having a good stable response and it actually doesn't. It has dips and bumps but still makes people think otherwise, so it may be of a something similar interpretation.

My own horn system is 109db/1w/1m efficient from 120hz to 20khz. I can have much higher efficiency from midrange on, close to 120db but it wont match what is below 600hz. My mid-bass is what sets my efficiency, the rest is attenuated to that like most multiway horn systems.

Below 120hz, altough I have dual tad 1601b high efficiency woofers, they are 100db efficient hence my need for bi-amping and independent volume control for them. I am now preparing to build a 6 servo controlled woofers per side open baffle bass system and still they would be 102db efficient from 20hz to 120hz.
 

bonzo75

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#52
Hi Kodomo, Devore is not in this league. It is much of a compromise and you can hear it no need to measure. I do not understand why someone will call it coherent and stable in this league, though it is imo one of the best speakers given what kind of a compromise it packs for its size and price. Yes Quads are compromised but you can see why people love them. I would say Devore is similar, in a different way.

The Pnoe also might have flaws when measured. The thing is a system can be set up around them unlike with any other, i.e. driving them with the 1w 46 amps. This makes them the fastest and most liquid when set up with that amp, and you can hear it in inflections and tones especially when playing piano and violin. A person used to big woofers might not like the bass, or someone who wants plasma tweeters might consider highs are not the same, but certainly Bill and I miss nothing when we listen to that. It is set up to play the most pristine vinyl in the world, and that works. Thing is, the 1 watters can hardly be used on anything else, and the moment you start adding power, you start slowing a system down. If you have heard any good 45 or 2a3 and compared to bigger valve amps, you will know what I mean - it is usually a trade off where the smaller valves have speed and tone but lack headroom, dynamic range, bass, drive on other speakers, so people keep gong up to 211 and 845, etc...over here, the smaller valves suffice and do everything, leading to a win
 

kodomo

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Apr 26, 2017
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#53
Of course the Devores are in a different league. I just meant measured ragged responses may not be heard as so by listeners. Other positive stuff makes people think they are more linear then they think. This is something that comes up a lot in my experience. A similar example is this. I met someone who told me his speakers response over 12-14khz was too high and distracting. I listened and said his speakers at his position actually has a very low response over 10khz and he did not believe me. We measured and the problem he was hearing was at 4-5khz as I told him so. He would not believe me and I had to show him the measurements :)

I worked at studios playing drums when I was younger and then owned a studio making sound design a little later than that for a few years. It was through that I learned which frequency corresponds to what I hear. Actually there are charts for helping engineers with equalising. Those same charts can be used for understanding the response or the problems of a speaker with a good recording.
 

bonzo75

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#54
I can think of linear speakers I don't like as much as the Devore. Thing with measurements is it focuses on the holes. Some of the good components do a lot of things other components can't and as a whole sound better. The Devore best worked with the NAF 2a3 8w amp (which is not a good 2a3er imo, it is slow for a 2a3). The main reason for using pnoes is to use them with amps that you cannot use on other speakers which has sonic benefits, so that combination is magical, and in the case of the General specifically his objective is also to keep out all crossovers, caps, resistors, out of his signal path.
 

bonzo75

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#55
Chris

You really have nice systems including exotic horn speakers and Apogee Grand.
Those are studio grands not grands. Don't make his mouth water.
 

Tango

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#56
The Devore best worked with the NAF 2a3 8w amp (which is not a good 2a3er imo, it is slow for a 2a3).
Could you rephrase please. I dont understand.

Tang
 

bonzo75

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#57

kodomo

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#58
I can think of linear speakers I don't like as much as the Devore. Thing with measurements is it focuses on the holes. Some of the good components do a lot of things other components can't and as a whole sound better. The Devore best worked with the NAF 2a3 8w amp (which is not a good 2a3er imo, it is slow for a 2a3). The main reason for using pnoes is to use them with amps that you cannot use on other speakers which has sonic benefits, so that combination is magical, and in the case of the General specifically his objective is also to keep out all crossovers, caps, resistors, out of his signal path.
How do you know the speakers you heard had linear responses when you were hearing them in their relevant room. Have you measured to check? If not, you may well also be falling into the same misinterpretations. I am not commenting on your hearing, you can hear a problem and you have enough experience. I am commenting on the interpretation of what you hear.
 

bonzo75

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#59
Yes you are right some speakers that are linear on paper might not have the linearity in the room I am listening to them in. Alternatively I can think of systems set up in treated rooms and measured (by the owner, not me), to achieve linearity. There is no horn system I have been to that has been measured for in room response by the owner except a couple of DIYs where the creator had to do it in that room while designing, though I can't say what his approach was to linearity.
 

Tango

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#60
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