How many of you are interested in Vintage Horn Speakers?

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
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#61
Of course the Devores are in a different league. I just meant measured ragged responses may not be heard as so by listeners. Other positive stuff makes people think they are more linear then they think. This is something that comes up a lot in my experience.

Exactly!

This is why I've said that Toole/Harman only has half the picture and the holy grail of even frequency response is not the most important thing, and is absolutely not the primary driver of preference like they think it is. It's only an issue compared to other systems that are very similar. Harman will never setup a system with the same kind of care given to AC power, cabling, and vibration control that are necessary to achieve best results. They ASSume all these things don't matter but it seems to me they have never actually tested it.

With my own speakers I know exactly what and where the FR issues are but nobody that hears my speakers notices that. Even very experienced listeners and other speaker designers don't recognize these issues. I've had people experienced in recording studios fooled thinking the speakers were much flatter than they really are.

OTOH, Everyone notices the 3-D, immersive presentation and everyone comments on it. Compared to my other speakers, Pioneer S-1EX (similar to TAD Evo Towers), this is what everyone comments on and 100% of people so far prefer my speaker on that basis even though the Pioneers are very close to technically perfect. The other issue is the Pioneer's two 7" woofers aren't even close to the amazing 15" AE woofers my speakers use. :)

Other things folks tend to comment on vary quite a bit. Some are more sensitive to certain things than others, it is very interesting...


As far as AER driver specs, IDK... you may also note it's claimed they are flat 20Hz-20kHz with almost no variation. That + the efficiency seem to be pushing believability but IDK. I had BD3 and have heard BD1 in a BLH but I've not measured them myself. BD4 pricing is ridiculous and not worthwhile imo.
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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#62
Enclosure was made by my friend and its unit was 4.5 inch brand unit but I do not remember the name

I had been happy with Lansche 4.1 which has excellent dynamics and good extension since 2007.

Its active bass units have no problem with crossing over passive mid range driver with fast transients.
Larger single drivers have far better headroom and dynamics.
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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#63
Hi Kodomo, Devore is not in this league. It is much of a compromise and you can hear it no need to measure. I do not understand why someone will call it coherent and stable in this league, though it is imo one of the best speakers given what kind of a compromise it packs for its size and price. Yes Quads are compromised but you can see why people love them. I would say Devore is similar, in a different way.

The Pnoe also might have flaws when measured. The thing is a system can be set up around them unlike with any other, i.e. driving them with the 1w 46 amps. This makes them the fastest and most liquid when set up with that amp, and you can hear it in inflections and tones especially when playing piano and violin. A person used to big woofers might not like the bass, or someone who wants plasma tweeters might consider highs are not the same, but certainly Bill and I miss nothing when we listen to that. It is set up to play the most pristine vinyl in the world, and that works. Thing is, the 1 watters can hardly be used on anything else, and the moment you start adding power, you start slowing a system down. If you have heard any good 45 or 2a3 and compared to bigger valve amps, you will know what I mean - it is usually a trade off where the smaller valves have speed and tone but lack headroom, dynamic range, bass, drive on other speakers, so people keep gong up to 211 and 845, etc...over here, the smaller valves suffice and do everything, leading to a win
You are really over generalizing the whole amp/power issue. You heard Pnoe with one of each type. That doesn’t allow for this generalization you are making. The Thomas Mayer amp is a VERY good example of a low watter and other low watt amps might be a big fail in one way or another. Equal quality higher watt SET amps should be compared. It gets harder to make it as good as the power goes up but it is doable.
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#64
You are really over generalizing the whole amp/power issue. You heard Pnoe with one of each type. That doesn’t allow for this generalization you are making. The Thomas Mayer amp is a VERY good example of a low watter and other low watt amps might be a big fail in one way or another. Equal quality higher watt SET amps should be compared. It gets harder to make it as good as the power goes up but it is doable.
Obviously. The 1w and 18w were both from Mayer, with more put into the 18.

That said, I heard the AN empress 2a3 6w. It is so much faster than other powerful sets I compared with, or generally heard, more liquid. Read Gian's comments on 2a3 like Souga and kageki. I am scheduled to do compares of some AN and Kondo.
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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#65
I can think of linear speakers I don't like as much as the Devore. Thing with measurements is it focuses on the holes. Some of the good components do a lot of things other components can't and as a whole sound better. The Devore best worked with the NAF 2a3 8w amp (which is not a good 2a3er imo, it is slow for a 2a3). The main reason for using pnoes is to use them with amps that you cannot use on other speakers which has sonic benefits, so that combination is magical, and in the case of the General specifically his objective is also to keep out all crossovers, caps, resistors, out of his signal path.
Imo, frequency response is not nearly as important as other, non-linear errors speakers make, particularly dynamic issues like thermal compression.

One thing that a lot of people don’t talk about with multi-way speakers is the difference in dynamic behavior for each driver in the speaker. If each one suffers thermal or dynamic compression at different SPL then the speakers character will be changing on dynamic peaks and sudden shifts...far more disturbing than simple linear errors. Phase distortion is also potentially more disturbing. Random breakup and cabinet noises are also of greater concern, IMO
 
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morricab

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#66
Obviously. The 1w and 18w were both from Mayer, with more put into the 18.

That said, I heard the AN empress 2a3 6w. It is so much faster than other powerful sets I compared with, or generally heard, more liquid. Read Gian's comments on 2a3 like Souga and kageki. I am scheduled to do compares of some AN and Kondo.
There is nothing in the physics of the tubes themselves that says this has to be so, except perhaps capacitance that affects the driver circuit. A larger power supply needed for a higher power might also be slower if not designed well enough. Maybe the right adjustments for these needs are not being accounted for when “scaling up”?
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
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#67
Obviously. The 1w and 18w were both from Mayer, with more put into the 18.

That said, I heard the AN empress 2a3 6w. It is so much faster than other powerful sets I compared with, or generally heard, more liquid. Read Gian's comments on 2a3 like Souga and kageki. I am scheduled to do compares of some AN and Kondo.

These differences can often be due to tube selection.

A friend had Fi 2a3 monos and changing the driver tube made it sound like a completely different amp. I don't think most amps are that sensitive but sometimes it's hard to judge a tube amp on just one set of tubes.
 
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morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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#68
These differences can often be due to tube selection.

A friend had Fi 2a3 monos and changing the driver tube made it sound like a completely different amp. I don't think most amps are that sensitive but sometimes it's hard to judge a tube amp on just one set of tubes.
Design difference can also be profound
 
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bonzo75

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#69
Yes tube changes will make a difference. And we are not discussing bad amps with bad tubes. But if you take good examples of each, you will find the 300b, 211s and 845s are slower than 45, 46, 2a3. You can change tubes for all you like. The small tubes have more in tone and inflection while the bigger tubes have more oomph and drive. The bigger tubes will suit many more speakers and the smaller tubes won't. I have just started on this compare route and am seeing this, both Gian and general have much more experience in that regard.
 

Audiophile Bill

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Mar 23, 2015
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#70
116db efficiency is a little vague. I would really like to know more about its details and would love to see some measurements. What is the bandwidth for that efficiency. I don't know about the bd4 but it has to have an average of 110db efficiency throughout the audio band which is something I have never personally heard from a direct radiator. You can have high efficiency (mostly compression drivers are around this much efficiency) but having high efficiency and a wide range stable response is very, very rare. If you can have high efficiency with a stable response and extension, there is not much of a need for low efficiency drivers.

If they have somehow built a driver and matched its uneven response to the backloaded and the front horn perfectly then congrats. Maybe the BD4 has around 6db dips where just the horn loads and makes up for them... Or maybe the response is ragged but having the horn load, hearing the details etc. makes up for these. I see on the forum, Devore Orangutan being called coherent and even having a good stable response and it actually doesn't. It has dips and bumps but still makes people think otherwise, so it may be of a something similar interpretation.

My own horn system is 109db/1w/1m efficient from 120hz to 20khz. I can have much higher efficiency from midrange on, close to 120db but it wont match what is below 600hz. My mid-bass is what sets my efficiency, the rest is attenuated to that like most multiway horn systems.

Below 120hz, altough I have dual tad 1601b high efficiency woofers, they are 100db efficient hence my need for bi-amping and independent volume control for them. I am now preparing to build a 6 servo controlled woofers per side open baffle bass system and still they would be 102db efficient from 20hz to 120hz.
Hi Kodomo - I haven’t seen the measurements to verify but there are allegedly some 15” and above drivers capable of 105dB+
I think the Maxonic bass driver is rated at 105dB and the ALE or Goto woofer also.
 

Audiophile Bill

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Mar 23, 2015
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#71
Of course the Devores are in a different league. I just meant measured ragged responses may not be heard as so by listeners. Other positive stuff makes people think they are more linear then they think. This is something that comes up a lot in my experience. A similar example is this. I met someone who told me his speakers response over 12-14khz was too high and distracting. I listened and said his speakers at his position actually has a very low response over 10khz and he did not believe me. We measured and the problem he was hearing was at 4-5khz as I told him so. He would not believe me and I had to show him the measurements :)

I worked at studios playing drums when I was younger and then owned a studio making sound design a little later than that for a few years. It was through that I learned which frequency corresponds to what I hear. Actually there are charts for helping engineers with equalising. Those same charts can be used for understanding the response or the problems of a speaker with a good recording.
Playing drums will not help your ears lol :oops:
 

Audiophile Bill

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Mar 23, 2015
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#72
Yes tube changes will make a difference. And we are not discussing bad amps with bad tubes. But if you take good examples of each, you will find the 300b, 211s and 845s are slower than 45, 46, 2a3. You can change tubes for all you like. The small tubes have more in tone and inflection while the bigger tubes have more oomph and drive. The bigger tubes will suit many more speakers and the smaller tubes won't. I have just started on this compare route and am seeing this, both Gian and general have much more experience in that regard.
Totally agree - once you are down this rabbit hole (as am I) it is hard to come out so you just need to find a speaker to use these amps on :)
 

Audiophile Bill

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Mar 23, 2015
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#73
The whole speaker “linearity” thing is a total myth imho. I know for a fact that my preference is not for full measured linearity. I openly admit that I am very sensitive at 1-2khz and happily take a relative dip there but happier to take more relative energy again higher up. Likewise happy for a mid and upper bass hump. Just sounds more natural to me.
 

thomask

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Dec 9, 2018
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#74
The whole speaker “linearity” thing is a total myth imho. I know for a fact that my preference is not for full measured linearity. I openly admit that I am very sensitive at 1-2khz and happily take a relative dip there but happier to take more relative energy again higher up. Likewise happy for a mid and upper bass hump. Just sounds more natural to me.
Somehow this discussion is going forward to modern horns rather than vintage horns.

But I acknowledge that there are many nice modern horns that I have chance to audition in the future.
 

thomask

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2018
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Washington State, US
#76
Update on the situation.

I have my cash reserve in stock fund.

But due to recent crash of stock prices, it is very hard to get the money out of fund without incurring heavy loss.

Thus for the time being, I will give up the idea of getting vintage Western Horn.

Someday, if my stock price go up, then I may go for vintage Western Horn.


I will try to audition Line Magnetic LM3 speakers in Hong Kong, or Main China before making decision on it.

Also I will audition Arion Audio Apollo System whose tower claim to have 105db/W using custom neodymium magnets .
 
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Audiophile Bill

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2015
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113
UK
#77
Update on the situation.

I have my cash reserve in stock fund.

But due to recent crash of stock prices, it is very hard to get the money out of fund without incurring heavy loss.

Thus for the time being, I will give up the idea of getting vintage Western Horn.

Someday, if my stock price go up, then I may go for vintage Western Horn.


I will try to audition Line Magnetic LM3 speakers in Hong Kong, or Main China before making decision on it.

Also I will audition Arion Audio Apollo System whose tower claim to have 105db/W using custom neodymium magnets .
Please keep us posted on your findings.
 
Jan 18, 2012
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Drobak Norway
#78
and when your stock prices goes up again, you expect to get more and won´t sell....
best
Leif
sec finance trader...
btw my DIY horn system is driven by single 300B from 75 and up, approx 110db eff after "adjusted curve"
limiting factor is dual JBL2220B in frontloaded horns...
 

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