How much is too much?

[FrantzM]

I really don't see much trickle down "technology" any more, so I will disagree. I see a lot of tiny shops trying to soak the uber-rich as a business model. Even shops like VAC have gravitated in that direction---Kevin Hayes doesn't make a box under 10k now. I wonder why. His top of the line monoblocks are now 78k/pair. This is 50% higher that ARC or VTL. Ken Shindo's top amps are 30k a pair which seems like a bargain in comparison- and he's a small producer with the historically strong Yen at his back. How on earth are Spectral 360 IIs only 20k? Another small manufacturer with realistic pricing--so that's not the excuse.

I also feel that people comparing this industry to cars is a bit off as well. You can't tell me a pair of Constellation amps should cost as much as 911 Turbo. Sorry. There is 100x the engineering in a Turbo than an amp, it's really not funny. And no disrespect to CA---I'm sure it sounds great. Isn't the "trickle down" stereo CA amp like 60-75k?

I sold a guy my ARC LS25MKI who took it into a local shop to compare to more recent ARC preamps---it wasn't embarrassed. That preamp was built in 1999. I know several Ref 1 owners who refuse to "upgrade" despite the means to. A 911 is a vastly different machine than the 90s (although my fav Porsche period is a 993 from 1996--have a soft spot for air cooled engines)

One other issue is we can't audition any of this crap anymore, so the JVs of the world have discretion on what is SOTA. He has tremendous influence on this business, so it's not the "whatever the market will bear, stupid" that some comment on. There is no real market--as people buy only off reviews that make them feel they have to keep up with the Joneses. We don't shop for audio like automobiles.

Finally, the used market offers clues on how overpriced this stuff is. Pretty much none of it can hold 40% of it's MSRP.

KeithR

The best post so far in this thread.. Clearly the market is toward the higher prices. What Keith said about VAC could be applied to Lamm Labs and many others... IT wasn't a few years that Burmester gears were considered outrageously priced ..Today they are mid-priced ...

I also think that truly it becomes difficult for most of us even the better heeled to audition these things as KeithR so clearly stated .. Fr the most part we can hear them under the worst condition: at shows, unless a friend or a person we know has these.. So indeed we are at the mercy of those who have access. And the more expensive gear are consistently the best they will hear ... We are not headed in the right direction if you ask me...

Now about how much is too much .. It can be a moving target as the best we may have heard and able to afford , gravitates toward a higher stratum of price ... I used to limit it to $20K for any individual component ... I think I can keep it there for a good while but am tempted to move upward for speaker system ...
I also noticed that the original question has not been answered .. Let me venture one...Really How much is too much:
For me any amplifier over $50K (if it is mono then the sum should be less or equal to $50K
Preamp $20K ( I admit to lust after the much more expensive Burmester 808 )
Speakers less than $50K
DAC less than $10 K
Cables.... Cables??? Come on !!! should well be less than $1k for the whole system, including cable elevators
Phono pre-preamp $5K
TTs, the brothers in arm of analog luxury watches. All that matters are the complications or so it seems. They are the most beautiful creations of the Audio world and for the visual impact you must pay. They are artistic creation it seems to me and nothing is cooler-looking than a TT.. in comparison a DAC + a PC is pedestrian .. The summum of utilitarianism , even if you use a Mac Air.. (What a beautiful laptop BTW !!? in comparison the Mac Book Pro I am using right now looks almost bad)
For TT $25 K including arm and cartridge...
The ultimate in analog is R2R and on that I am certain there is NO debate. so $10K for R2R system.... Strange that the Ultimate in analog is so price-efficient ...
I would throw $10 K on accessories ..of all sorts and software to make your system better.

And to enjoy all these about 20 CDs, say $250/month for a while and taper off gently , if it is LP it can be go either way , either cheaper or much more expensive .. For tapes no luck since it seems that $250 won't even get you a Tape Project issue ... Go over that (which I do regularly) and you run the risk of missing some gems.. and not give yourself the opportunity to come back to some favorite pieces or/and cuts...

 

[Ron Party]

And to enjoy all these about 20 CDs, say $250/month for a while

My kind of guy: 20 new albums per month. That's a nice, healthy clip. For the past year I've been doing about 30 per month. Now if only I could find the time to listen to all of them.

 

[KeithR]

Yes well stated, except I can't swallow the part about JV's of the world directing the market. I don't see anybody here following them like sheep to the slaughter.

The only way the Technical Brains of the world can charge that kind of premium is with a stellar JV review. It's not like they have 100 dealers in the US.

Basically the new "SOTA" model is to have a small importer, get a great review, and sell directly to the public. This is also why I prefer the Stereophile method to reviewing (5 dealers required)

 

[egidius]

I understand the argument but I'm just a bit unsure as to which bit of these $140k products is truly "breakthrough"

Well, I use an amp worth 4K, and i would consider it a breakthrough product - considering how many people were trying to explain it as "not an OTL" quite a few must have felt so too.
e

 

[microstrip]

(...) I also noticed that the original question has not been answered .. Let me venture one...Really How much is too much:

For me any amplifier over $50K (if it is mono then the sum should be less or equal to $50K
Preamp $20K ( I admit to lust after the much more expensive Burmester 808 )
Speakers less than $50K
DAC less than $10 K
Cables.... Cables??? Come on !!! should well be less than $1k for the whole system, including cable elevators
Phono pre-preamp $5K
TTs, the brothers in arm of analog luxury watches. All that matters are the complications or so it seems. They are the most beautiful creations of the Audio world and for the visual impact you must pay. They are artistic creation it seems to me and nothing is cooler-looking than a TT.. in comparison a DAC + a PC is pedestrian .. The summum of utilitarianism , even if you use a Mac Air.. (What a beautiful laptop BTW !!? in comparison the Mac Book Pro I am using right now looks almost bad)
For TT $25 K including arm and cartridge...
The ultimate in analog is R2R and on that I am certain there is NO debate. so $10K for R2R system.... Strange that the Ultimate in analog is so price-efficient ...
I would throw $10 K on accessories ..of all sorts and software to make your system better.

(...)

Frantz,
Curious that if I add 30% (not an huge difference) to one of your values we agree on the values I consider that would be a very reasonable answer to this thread. With one exception - the cables ! IMHO your cable budget would compromise the performance of the system.

Surely these values are very personal and subjective - this is just my feeling, I have no strong arguments to support them. But I think the most important aspect of this thread is just knowing what others think about the subject.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The ultimate in analog is R2R and on that I am certain there is NO debate. so $10K for R2R system.... Strange that the Ultimate in analog is so price-efficient ...

This should be telling -- infinitely more complex than an amp or a pre, and much less expensive. In fact, one could argue that it is a pre, with a tape transport attached. Why are they so different in price? What is so different about these markets?

Tim

 

[Orb]

I really don't see much trickle down "technology" any more, so I will disagree. I see a lot of tiny shops trying to soak the uber-rich as a business model. Even shops like VAC have gravitated in that direction---Kevin Hayes doesn't make a box under 10k now. I wonder why. His top of the line monoblocks are now 78k/pair. This is 50% higher that ARC or VTL. Ken Shindo's top amps are 30k a pair which seems like a bargain in comparison- and he's a small producer with the historically strong Yen at his back. How on earth are Spectral 360 IIs only 20k? Another small manufacturer with realistic pricing--so that's not the excuse.

I also feel that people comparing this industry to cars is a bit off as well. You can't tell me a pair of Constellation amps should cost as much as 911 Turbo. Sorry. There is 100x the engineering in a Turbo than an amp, it's really not funny. And no disrespect to CA---I'm sure it sounds great. Isn't the "trickle down" stereo CA amp like 60-75k?

I sold a guy my ARC LS25MKI who took it into a local shop to compare to more recent ARC preamps---it wasn't embarrassed. That preamp was built in 1999. I know several Ref 1 owners who refuse to "upgrade" despite the means to. A 911 is a vastly different machine than the 90s (although my fav Porsche period is a 993 from 1996--have a soft spot for air cooled engines)

One other issue is we can't audition any of this crap anymore, so the JVs of the world have discretion on what is SOTA. He has tremendous influence on this business, so it's not the "whatever the market will bear, stupid" that some comment on. There is no real market--as people buy only off reviews that make them feel they have to keep up with the Joneses. We don't shop for audio like automobiles.

Finally, the used market offers clues on how overpriced this stuff is. Pretty much none of it can hold 40% of it's MSRP.

KeithR

I think the car analogy works well but it has to be used carefully.
When using say the Turbo 911 equivalent would be products like ARC LS27, the GT3 would be the ARC Ref5, and the GT3 RS the ARC Anniversary REF40.
And there are plenty of other mainstream reference products that fit in this price bracket, such as the current McIntosh Anniversary set that has stunning measurements for tube system.

But when talking about the excessive esoteric products then these should be compared to small performance car manufacturers, and in this case one example is the remake of the jaguar E-type that retails for over £500,000.
Jeremy Clarkson commented it is waaay overpriced for many reasons, and in their discussion it came down to conclusion they were naming their price, and as you say this is no excuse and they deserve to lose business.
There will be other small company car examples like this, which is more comparable to the excessive esoteric audio manufacturers.

Relating to old and new ARC, well what your paying for is performance quality such as lower noise, better linearity, etc, and not necessarily a vast improvement over say subjective sound when taking these out of the equation.
Secondhand values, well that seems applicable to many markets now; just look how much cars lose when driven off the forecourt, and especially high performance models.
Again Top Gear showed a massive depreciation in great models from Mercedez, Audi, and others (ignoring a small selective group of cars that maintain value).

Trickle down is a tricky thing and is used too often sadly by marketing, but it does still exist.
A good example of trickle down from what I understand is the LS27 that has performance above that of the Ref3, again staying with the ARC example.

Just an alternative take
Cheers
Orb

 

[Orb]

This should be telling -- infinitely more complex than an amp or a pre, and much less expensive. In fact, one could argue that it is a pre, with a tape transport attached. Why are they so different in price? What is so different about these markets?

Tim

Here is a good challenge
Can you find a modern R2R that is being manufacturered today and is used as a reference for high quality playback?
My understanding is that the best R2R are no longer manufacturered, and for a very good reason being the cost involved to do so.
So the cost is a reflection of older refurbished models, still very good but do not need to reflect modern manufacturing and sales channel distribution costs.

Cheers
Orb

 

[Steve williams]

Here is a good challenge
Can you find a modern R2R that is being manufacturered today and is used as a reference for high quality playback?
My understanding is that the best R2R are no longer manufacturered, and for a very good reason being the cost involved to do so.
So the cost is a reflection of older refurbished models, still very good but do not need to reflect modern manufacturing and sales channel distribution costs.

Cheers
Orb

Philip O'Hanlon the national distributor for Luxman had one on display at the recent Cali Audio show which is a player but not a recorder and had a wireless remote for $10K

 

[microstrip]

This should be telling -- infinitely more complex than an amp or a pre, and much less expensive. In fact, one could argue that it is a pre, with a tape transport attached. Why are they so different in price? What is so different about these markets?

Tim

Tim,
I read some time ago that if the Studer A80 I have bought used for around usd 1000 and cost me almost usd 2000 to refurbish to almost new status would be have to be sold for more than usd 50000 if it was manufactured today in thousands quantities. Current values of today top reel to reel units are mainly due to the investment needed to refurbish them - you can get them at very cheap prices.

Although the function of the head amplifier is more like a phono cartridge amplifier, you are just re-issuing your argument of the 1000 usd preamplifier - there are reel to reel tape head amplifiers costing more than usd 8000. And no way complexity can be directly linked to cost.

 

[FrantzM]

Tim,
I read some time ago that if the Studer A80 I have bought used for around usd 1000 and cost me almost usd 2000 to refurbish to almost new status would be have to be sold for more than usd 50000 if it was manufactured today in thousands quantities. Current values of today top reel to reel units are mainly due to the investment needed to refurbish them - you can get them at very cheap prices.
<snip> .

At $50K the A80 would still be a better deal than any TT at ANY price...

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I'd love to have one for nostalgia's sake. I have no idea what I'd play on it, but I'd love to have one anyway.

Tim

 

[Orb]

Philip O'Hanlon the national distributor for Luxman had one on display at the recent Cali Audio show which is a player but not a recorder and had a wireless remote for $10K

Thanks Steve that is interesting,
will you have a chance to listen to it from a curiosity-comparison perspective sometime?

Interesting to note that this is still $10k for a dedicated playback R2R, sort of fits in with my point about cost of manufacturing and sales channel-distribution I feel.
Will be interesting to see how it goes head to head with the refurbished reference older R2R.

Thanks
Orb

 

[microstrip]

Philip O'Hanlon the national distributor for Luxman had one on display at the recent Cali Audio show which is a player but not a recorder and had a wireless remote for $10K

My previous comment was in part triggered by this machine - the Sonorus ATR10. This reel-to-reel uses the Revox PR99 (an enhanced version of the popular Revox B77 manufactured for the professionals) as starting point. It is heavily modified by Arian Jansen, including some modern electronics circuits to control tape tension, several power supplies and a new tube head amplifier.

http://sonorusaudio.com/ATR10_FIF7.html

For much less you can get a machine modified by the Tapeproject people

http://www.tapeproject.com/machines/machines.htm

adding one of their excellent Bottlehaed tube head amplifiers

http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=223

Their assembly manuals are filled with good advice - the first one I followed with great success was buying a good quality five diopter swing arm magnifying lamp if you are over 45!

 

[Steve williams]

Thanks for remembering the make of that R2R player as I searched everywhere

Orb, I did hear it and it lacked nothing except the ability to record and it hd a wireless remote

 

[Mike Lavigne]

At $50K the A80 would still be a better deal than any TT at ANY price...

as much of a tape head as i am, and with 3 master recorders in my room i'm clearly that, when you come to visit we'll see if you still hold to that perspective.

i'd support the generalization about tt's and RTR decks, but as to all and every i cannot.

 

[Orb]

Thanks for remembering the make of that R2R player as I searched everywhere

Orb, I did hear it and it lacked nothing except the ability to record and it hd a wireless remote

Good news indeed, and $10k seems a good price then.
I am a bit confused after reading Microstrips post - sorry guys.
Is this completely new manufacturing or a mix of new and old but not technically a refurbished unit.
Appreciate Micro may be talking of a completely different unit.

Cheers
Orb

 

[Steve williams]

Is this completely new manufacturing or a mix of new and old but not technically a refurbished unit.
Appreciate Micro may be talking of a completely different unit.

Micro got the name and everything else correct
It is a mix of new and old built on a Revox platform

 

[Gregadd]

Or this ~$10k :

 

[mep]

Good news indeed, and $10k seems a good price then.
I am a bit confused after reading Microstrips post - sorry guys.
Is this completely new manufacturing or a mix of new and old but not technically a refurbished unit.
Appreciate Micro may be talking of a completely different unit.

Cheers
Orb

This deck is based on a Revox PR-99.