OK what is the REAL reference? The master tape/hard disc or the sound of live music?
HP- Why I Quit the Absolute Sound or: Path to Personal Revelation
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OK what is the REAL reference? The master tape/hard disc or the sound of live music?
Since one is talking about variables of variables, the idea of an absolute reference tends to be moot, since all equipment sounds different and all listeners tend to hear differently, much less have different tastes.
If one must draw a consensus, opinions of critics are salt grinders to be taken with their many grains as such. That allows lot of shuck, jive and dive when evaluating music reproduction.
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
+1
The moment you have a microphone involved, there is no absolute reference anymore. I would venture that microphones sound as different as cartridges and loudspeakers - they are all transducers.
Sorry but I disagree Gary. In reality, it doesn't make any difference what the actual instrument sound like. The system has to sound like and reproduce the sound of the original tape or hard drive. Otherwise, you're just hearing colorations.
Besides there's no recording where the producer doesn't take some artistic license.
Myles, that doesn't make too much sense to me. If the original tape or hard drive doesn't sound like the actual instrument, then you are hearing colorations imposed by the recording. In my books, that would then be a poor recording. If we agree that all producer's take some artistic license ( which is also debatable) then the producer who has managed to get closest to the sound of the actual instrument as heard in its 'live' setting has managed to capture the best recording, at least IMHO.
I agree with Gary, the sound of an 'un-amplified' instrument in a 'live' setting is IMO the one to be referred to as a reference.
No, that's exactly it. No recording sounds like the original event for many reasons -- primary among which is artistic license. We truly don't have a clue in most cases what the producer/recording engineer did in the process of creating a recording. Do you think jazz and rock recordings sound like the live event--esp. when reverb, delay, etc are added to the mix? Do you listen to an instruments two inches away? If you heard most of the cherished jazz recordings, they were done dry with reverb added later.
Now where do you think the comparison's begin? With us? No it's with the Producer trying to get the recording to sometimes more closely resemble the actual event and sometimes what the musicians desire. As Gary indicated, most engineers will tell you that you start out a recording with at least a 20% loss at the mike and then it goes downhill after that, especially if you're going through a console.
That's not saying it's desirable to have live music as a reference but the reality is that our frame of reference is actually what is put down on tape and hard disc.
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Myles, actually you agree with me and I agree with you. If the recording/mastering engineer has taken some artistic licence, to put down a version of what's live on to the tape/hard-disk, then that version is the reference. However, there is no way to know what that version sounds like. Depending on the monitors that were used in the studio, what comes out of my speakers or any other speaker will sound very different.
Anything that is on a tape, LP or CD is already a piece of recording art.
However, there are some recordings where the producer tried to be as transparent as possible. May be not for the whole mix, but at least some part of the mix.
That is why we have Anne Bisson duet with herself to the Blue Mind vinyl. The quality of her voice live and recorded sounds very close. I don't know about the rest of the mix because I wasn't there in the studio, but the bass sounds very boosted. On the CD, the high frequencies also sound a bit hard..... but there is no frame of reference for me to be making any definitive statements.
On Peter's video, over good headphones you can distinctly hear the difference between Anne live and Anne recorded because the microphone is very far off axis from the speakers and it is pointing directly at Anne. However, that doesn't stop me from using Anne's voice on her Blue Mind album as a frame of reference for a female vocal.
Anything that is on a tape, LP or CD is already a piece of recording art.
However, there are some recordings where the producer tried to be as transparent as possible. May be not for the whole mix, but at least some part of the mix.
That is why we have Anne Bisson duet with herself to the Blue Mind vinyl. The quality of her voice live and recorded sounds very close. I don't know about the rest of the mix because I wasn't there in the studio, but the bass sounds very boosted. On the CD, the high frequencies also sound a bit hard..... but there is no frame of reference for me to be making any definitive statements.
On Peter's video, over good headphones you can distinctly hear the difference between Anne live and Anne recorded because the microphone is very far off axis from the speakers and it is pointing directly at Anne. However, that doesn't stop me from using Anne's voice on her Blue Mind album as a frame of reference for a female vocal.
I am lucky enough to live in NYC and have the ability to listen to a wide variety of gear. Various events throughout the years have exposed me to everything from custom tube gear to a full MBL system. I have yet to hear anything that I would consider unacceptable and just plain bad. I compare this to ice cream. There are plenty of flavors out there, vanilla (SS) and chocolate (tubes) dominate with a bunch of other flavors based on both. You may like or dilike any of the flavors but that doesn't make them bad. I have yet to hear any equipment that would be compared to broccoli ice cream. Unless the equipment physically fails I can't see how anyone is going to in good conscience write the negative review you seem to crave. Assuming proper operation at best you will get nuanced references to synergy and personal preferences. Of course someone could always review a SET amp in a system with 83db efficient speakers!
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
we have gone down this road so many times before. It seems that some people want to have no reference to protect there own opinions. If one is to be a reviewer he/she must have a developed reference otherwise all the reviews are in a vacuum of infinite variables. The MASTER reference should be live music and then you attempt to develop your home reference to get a s close to that as possible ( the way you hear it of course is taken for granted and can be argued over till the sun doesn't shine).
Components need to be evaluated one at a time and hopefully when listened to one tries to get your mind into that MASTER reference mode.
It may not be a prefect idea however it is the only one we have. The reviewers who do drive by listening at shows or go to someones home and say how great it is are just making noise it is meaningless to review in a void. Its ok to say you enjoyed the sound but what are you REVIEWING????
A system is the sum parts of all the gear, the room and the set up!!!!
One last point a reviewer who cant set up his own gear is not a reviewer to me just an observer
While we're saying much the same thing, how do you know what you're blaming is the equipment and not the recording? Pretty much all commercially released digital or analog recordings are pale facsimiles of the original recording (all one need to do is hear even a 2nd gen tape or the recording off a hard drive) which in turn are pale facsimiles of the original event. Not to mention, how do we know we're just not tuning our system to the sound of particular discs?
For that matter, how do we really know what's really on the LP or CD? For instance, the newest vinyl rigs extract and continue to show that there's even more information encoded in those grooves than ever believed.
Hell, if a high-rez recording flops (and some of us were lucky to hear this live vs. recorded demo given by the late Brian Cheney) at capturing a rather limited instrument such as a guitar, how can it do anything more complex? Otherwise, why go and hear live music?
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Not sure I agree with you entirely Elliot. The reference is live un-amplified sound, to then introduce your own reference system for use in comparing other components is meaningless. No matter how good that reference system may be, it is still only a reference based on a personal opinion, as not everyone has the same reference point. The review(s) thereby are entirely subjective and even attached measurements IMO can't make them any more than that. That's not to say we shouldn't have some kind of in-home reference, but we need to take the reviewers' writings in the proper context. As such I take reviews with a serious dose of salt.
I also don't think it is fair to expect to read a review that completely trashs a component. Think of it this way: On the various forums that we all visit, all of us have eventually read about some systems that wouldn't seem to work according to your ears, based on your experience with those components, or better yet, have read a glowing end-user review of a component that you think sounds horrid. It is all a matter of taste, particularly when you get into the mid-fi level and up. To expect a reviewer to occasionally write a review as if he is channeling Jay of The Critic ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Critic ) is unrealistic IMO.
While we're saying much the same thing, how do you know what you're blaming is the equipment and not the recording? Pretty much all commercially released digital or analog recordings are pale facsimiles of the original recording (all one need to do is hear even a 2nd gen tape or the recording off a hard drive) which in turn are pale facsimiles of the original event. Not to mention, how do we know we're just not tuning our system to the sound of particular discs?
For that matter, how do we really know what's really on the LP or CD? For instance, the newest vinyl rigs extract and continue to show that there's even more information encoded in those grooves than ever believed.
Hell, if a high-rez recording flops (and some of us were lucky to hear this live vs. recorded demo given by the late Brian Cheney) at capturing a rather limited instrument such as a guitar, how can it do anything more complex? Otherwise, why go and hear live music?
Hi
Indeed we have gone to this road before and these days more and more i High End Audio (and maybe elsewhere in the Audio world) the notion of preferences is at full strength. There is a clear push to push away a reference in favor of the Preference model.
I surmise the following , in the absence of a Reference,What are we debating then? What make a Wilson or any of our favored High End loudspeaker superior to a Bose Lifestyle cube speakers? When will we anoint the person with his van full of subwoofer and amplifiers totaling 50 Kw an audiophile? Most people on this board would think :"Not Ever!!!". People hear differently but I would think there is some consistency in the way different hearings capture a given event. I don't think one listen today to a violin and tomorrow to a Cello and find them sounding the same... We may prefer the presentation of a given transducer or electronics but it must reproduce something sounds as close as possible to what the original was or was constructed as ... Else it is all good and a Bose Lifestyle is as valid and good as any of our favored audiophile systems... If we completely throw away the notion of , of fidelity to something, there can be any progress ..just random chase depending on people various tastes or state of mind. That may make money for some but will not advance the cause of music reproduction or that of music in general.
Back to the topic.
and for me back to Msoft Visio to work on my customers designs
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
we are saying the same thing . The recordings whether analog or digital are all we have. Let's face it we need to choose somethingWhile we're saying much the same thing, how do you know what you're blaming is the equipment and not the recording? Pretty much all commercially released digital or analog recordings are pale facsimiles of the original recording (all one need to do is hear even a 2nd gen tape or the recording off a hard drive) which in turn are pale facsimiles of the original event. Not to mention, how do we know we're just not tuning our system to the sound of particular discs?
For that matter, how do we really know what's really on the LP or CD? For instance, the newest vinyl rigs extract and continue to show that there's even more information encoded in those grooves than ever believed.
Hell, if a high-rez recording flops (and some of us were lucky to hear this live vs. recorded demo given by the late Brian Cheney) at capturing a rather limited instrument such as a guitar, how can it do anything more complex? Otherwise, why go and hear live music?
Here is what I said:
I, too, have heard many different audio products at many retailers across the country and CES, The Show, Axpona and CEDIA. And some of those products, "for the price they were charging" were in my mind and those who were with me at these various venues, a joke. Maybe at 1/10th the cost, they were OK but they were grossly over valued.
I recall one particular speaker (that shall go nameless) that was all of the rage. Mega-priced. I heard it in an individual's home where it had been set up by the manufacturer and at multiple CES's in multiple venues. Every time I walked out of the rooms, I and the various individuals who were with me (most of whom I did not know) all had the same response. "Those speakers are not even remotely worth what they are charging." Were they a good speaker for $2500? Yes. For the $85,000 MSRP? Not even close.
I have to believe that audio reviewers do come across such audio products in their reviewing professions but I have yet to ever read of one in either TAS or Stereophile in the last 10 years (I have been a reader of both since the early 70's).
P.S. Some long number of years after I heard the above unnamed speaker that I thought was grossly over priced, I had a chance to hear a pair that had been HUGELY modified. It was easily one of the best 2 channel listening sessions I have ever experienced.
I, too, have heard many different audio products at many retailers across the country and CES, The Show, Axpona and CEDIA. And some of those products, "for the price they were charging" were in my mind and those who were with me at these various venues, a joke. Maybe at 1/10th the cost, they were OK but they were grossly over valued.
I recall one particular speaker (that shall go nameless) that was all of the rage. Mega-priced. I heard it in an individual's home where it had been set up by the manufacturer and at multiple CES's in multiple venues. Every time I walked out of the rooms, I and the various individuals who were with me (most of whom I did not know) all had the same response. "Those speakers are not even remotely worth what they are charging." Were they a good speaker for $2500? Yes. For the $85,000 MSRP? Not even close.
I have to believe that audio reviewers do come across such audio products in their reviewing professions but I have yet to ever read of one in either TAS or Stereophile in the last 10 years (I have been a reader of both since the early 70's).
P.S. Some long number of years after I heard the above unnamed speaker that I thought was grossly over priced, I had a chance to hear a pair that had been HUGELY modified. It was easily one of the best 2 channel listening sessions I have ever experienced.
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
I agree that is the starting point. I always have. I don't have live un- amplified music every evening in my home but I want it!!!!
I wont live without music and so I attempt to put together something that takes me as close as I can get. I know it isn't 100 percent there but at times it transports me to where i want to go. That is my journey, that is my desire and that is my goal.
I hate all the negative thoughts. You cant do this you cant do that.. Yes I can, yes I can. I want to enjoy my life and music is an integral part. If it gives me goosebumps now and then I am all in.
I am using a high res downloads now and there are some that just blow my mind. Its not live but it ain't chopped liver either.
Take a CAPS 3 with a Transparent USB ( sorry you cant since it inst out yet LOL) play it through an MSB Diamond, or an EMM DAC 2X with the DSD recording by Cookie Moreno of Dayan Kai playing Just trying to find a home with Keith Greeninger or Keith Jarret Koln Concert and if you arent blown away then you did it wrong!
I wish it was all that good but it is sadly isn't. I wont stop trying and I wont make excuses or take excuses from those who just don't get it. I CANT LIVE WITHOUT IT, I am a junkie and this is my fix. I don't know if you are a gear worshiper or truly love the music. I hope the latter but this forum seems to have a lot of the former!
I wont live without music and so I attempt to put together something that takes me as close as I can get. I know it isn't 100 percent there but at times it transports me to where i want to go. That is my journey, that is my desire and that is my goal.
I hate all the negative thoughts. You cant do this you cant do that.. Yes I can, yes I can. I want to enjoy my life and music is an integral part. If it gives me goosebumps now and then I am all in.
I am using a high res downloads now and there are some that just blow my mind. Its not live but it ain't chopped liver either.
Take a CAPS 3 with a Transparent USB ( sorry you cant since it inst out yet LOL) play it through an MSB Diamond, or an EMM DAC 2X with the DSD recording by Cookie Moreno of Dayan Kai playing Just trying to find a home with Keith Greeninger or Keith Jarret Koln Concert and if you arent blown away then you did it wrong!
I wish it was all that good but it is sadly isn't. I wont stop trying and I wont make excuses or take excuses from those who just don't get it. I CANT LIVE WITHOUT IT, I am a junkie and this is my fix. I don't know if you are a gear worshiper or truly love the music. I hope the latter but this forum seems to have a lot of the former!
There are a number of things going on in this thread, which led us to the question why a reviewer has to potentially compromise his/her integrity by taking a long term loan of gear to establish a 'reference system' and whether it is even necessary to have such a system to effectively review products.
That, in turn, led us to the age-old debate about what the 'reference' is, live music or the recording.
Since we acknowledge that the recording is never going to faithfully replicate the live event, but that the recording is 'all we have,' it seems obvious, at least to me, that when a reviewer describes the sound of a system or piece of gear, he/she is going to identify the particular recording and focus on certain well known attributes of it. (I think that's why we come to hate some of these records that get beat into the ground, precisely because they are played so constantly as a 'reference' that you tire of them). And, to make that meaningful, I do think comparisons have to be made with how a comparable piece of gear or system affects what you hear- I guess that's a 'reference' too. For example, I remember that HiFi+ did a 'shoot-out' of high-end line stages some years ago; the description of what the Lamm L2 did (and didn't do) turned out to be spot on, not just by virtue of the detailed review of that component, but by the comparisons of its strengths and weaknesses with other comparable line stages. In that, there was no 'single' reference system as far I know (I can't remember what amp, speaker and source players were used), but the reviewer very effectively keyed into the sound of the Lamm by comparison to the sound of the other line stages (and I only single out the Lamm because I owned it and know what it sounded like). That review, to me, was very effective, and it wasn't because it was a glowing validation of my purchase. (FWIW, i no longer own the component anyway).
That, in turn, led us to the age-old debate about what the 'reference' is, live music or the recording.
Since we acknowledge that the recording is never going to faithfully replicate the live event, but that the recording is 'all we have,' it seems obvious, at least to me, that when a reviewer describes the sound of a system or piece of gear, he/she is going to identify the particular recording and focus on certain well known attributes of it. (I think that's why we come to hate some of these records that get beat into the ground, precisely because they are played so constantly as a 'reference' that you tire of them). And, to make that meaningful, I do think comparisons have to be made with how a comparable piece of gear or system affects what you hear- I guess that's a 'reference' too. For example, I remember that HiFi+ did a 'shoot-out' of high-end line stages some years ago; the description of what the Lamm L2 did (and didn't do) turned out to be spot on, not just by virtue of the detailed review of that component, but by the comparisons of its strengths and weaknesses with other comparable line stages. In that, there was no 'single' reference system as far I know (I can't remember what amp, speaker and source players were used), but the reviewer very effectively keyed into the sound of the Lamm by comparison to the sound of the other line stages (and I only single out the Lamm because I owned it and know what it sounded like). That review, to me, was very effective, and it wasn't because it was a glowing validation of my purchase. (FWIW, i no longer own the component anyway).
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Elliot - I don't know if the post I quoted was directed towards my reply earlier, but I agree with what you you wrote in its entirety!
Unless I have Los Indios Tabajaros in my home every time I try to form an opinion about a piece of gear, it is pointless to consider a mechanical source as a replacement. For the record, and as most everyone knows, I AM a music lover first...and by a longshot. There is no debate about this. If I took the money I spend on media over the course of a year, I'd have a shiny new toy continuallly and my system would be far superior to what I have now. But I prefer indulging my passion with great music...be damned the gear (to a point).
For me then the issue of a reviewer having a reference system is only good to know as a point of comparison, not a point of superiority. After all, I may not like the choice of reference.
The bottom line for me, and I suspect you as well, is to enjoy the music. I love my system and I get as much pleasure from it (if not more) than some who are focused a little too much on gear. I try to find beauty instead of fault.
Reviews can be (unfortunately most are not) more than simple opinions and comparative statements of little value, unless taken with kilos of salt.
Good reviewers have a methodology, that has been perfected along many years of work, and we can learn a lot from their descriptions and how they reach and support their views. HP was a master in this aspect - I do not have it with me now, but I remember that his review of the cj ART preamplifier is one excellent example of this style.
Curiously the better reviews are not the more entertaining ones. Time goes much faster when you read KK, but what remains after that, besides the particular component appreciation itself, is very little.
Good reviewers have a methodology, that has been perfected along many years of work, and we can learn a lot from their descriptions and how they reach and support their views. HP was a master in this aspect - I do not have it with me now, but I remember that his review of the cj ART preamplifier is one excellent example of this style.
Curiously the better reviews are not the more entertaining ones. Time goes much faster when you read KK, but what remains after that, besides the particular component appreciation itself, is very little.
These mags represent their paying advertisers as that pays for their publishing, paper, salaries keeping the lights on requirements. But then again you have some new little company called HP harping on why he left TAS, who really cares.. It doesn't say much to me that a person starts some new adventure called HP but trashes another business regardless of how flawed that business was. All I know it leaves me with a taste of flawed credibility with HP. So what it comes down to is, prove it , walk the talk or find another profession, I hear Walmart is looking for someone in their audio area.
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