HP- Why I Quit the Absolute Sound or: Path to Personal Revelation

[DaveyF]

No, that's exactly it. No recording sounds like the original event for many reasons -- primary among which is artistic license. We truly don't have a clue in most cases what the producer/recording engineer did in the process of creating a recording. Do you think jazz and rock recordings sound like the live event--esp. when reverb, delay, etc are added to the mix? Do you listen to an instruments two inches away? If you heard most of the cherished jazz recordings, they were done dry with reverb added later.

Now where do you think the comparison's begin? With us? No it's with the Producer trying to get the recording to sometimes more closely resemble the actual event and sometimes what the musicians desire. As Gary indicated, most engineers will tell you that you start out a recording with at least a 20% loss at the mike and then it goes downhill after that, especially if you're going through a console.

That's not saying it's desirable to have live music as a reference but the reality is that our frame of reference is actually what is put down on tape and hard disc.

Myles, when you put it that way, I would agree with you. However, i think we have to clarify one point....and that is, a recording that has been majorly modified to sound like what the engineer/producer thinks the 'live 'instrument sounds like and now in fact is a poor simile of same, isn't IMO a good recording of an instrument and therefore should NOT be relied upon as a reference. Even if one's system can totally reproduce the sound of said recording with no colorations or distortions of the recording, then while the system is great, the recording isn't. I would say in this instance, any reviewer or listener who believes that the recording is 'realistic' is fooling themselves and their readers. Instead, a comparison between what the 'live' instrument sounds like and the recorded version of same should be highlighted and the differences brought to light.That's IMHO.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Myles, when you put it that way, I would agree with you. However, i think we have to clarify one point....and that is, a recording that has been majorly modified to sound like what the engineer/producer thinks the 'live 'instrument sounds like and now in fact is a poor simile of same, isn't IMO a good recording of an instrument and therefore should NOT be relied upon as a reference. Even if one's system can totally reproduce the sound of said recording with no colorations or distortions of the recording, then while the system is great, the recording isn't. I would say in this instance, any reviewer or listener who believes that the recording is 'realistic' is fooling themselves and their readers. Instead, a comparison between what the 'live' instrument sounds like and the recorded version of same should be highlighted and the differences brought to light.That's IMHO.

I actually think it would be interesting to make a list of why the *great* sounding recordings (performance aside) are great and so cherished.

 

[DaveyF]

Here is what I said:

I, too, have heard many different audio products at many retailers across the country and CES, The Show, Axpona and CEDIA. And some of those products, "for the price they were charging" were in my mind and those who were with me at these various venues, a joke. Maybe at 1/10th the cost, they were OK but they were grossly over valued.

I recall one particular speaker (that shall go nameless) that was all of the rage. Mega-priced. I heard it in an individual's home where it had been set up by the manufacturer and at multiple CES's in multiple venues. Every time I walked out of the rooms, I and the various individuals who were with me (most of whom I did not know) all had the same response. "Those speakers are not even remotely worth what they are charging." Were they a good speaker for $2500? Yes. For the $85,000 MSRP? Not even close.

I have to believe that audio reviewers do come across such audio products in their reviewing professions but I have yet to ever read of one in either TAS or Stereophile in the last 10 years (I have been a reader of both since the early 70's).

P.S. Some long number of years after I heard the above unnamed speaker that I thought was grossly over priced, I had a chance to hear a pair that had been HUGELY modified. It was easily one of the best 2 channel listening sessions I have ever experienced.

audioguy, I think you may be expecting a reviewer to compare the piece in question's abilities to the asking price and therefore determine value. While for most people, an $85K speaker that doesn't knock one's socks off would be a poor value, to others that may not apply. I suspect that like many on this board, i look at some of the asking prices of much of the gear touted as SOTA and shake my head in wonder. I also realize that to many others, these prices are mere 'chickenfeed'. Pricing and value are all relative. With that said, I can understand why most, if not all, reviewer's do not go down the road of "value for money".

 

[DaveyF]

I actually think it would be interesting to make a list of why the *great* sounding recordings (performance aside) are great and so cherished.

Myles, that would be very interesting. I used to ( still do) like HP's list for a very good reason, I thought/think he had/has a good ear and therefore his recommendations were to me 'sound':b

 

[NorthStar]

Harry had indeed a great music list. I wish more reviewers were in line with the music instead of the gear.

 

[caesar]

they need the newest and latest to generate new revenue streams. ....

TAS built up Magico from nothing. It's kind of like an NFL team drafting a prospect and developing him. Jon Valin nurtured and made Magico. And during that time he got to learn about all the details in his record collection that he did not know had existed.

But although Magico draws flies when reviewed or blogged about, Magico really hurt his career and credibility. Writing about how accurate or transparent something is doesn't strike up juices of many who want to experience the music's ability to connect with the emotions and the soul. Now that Valin has dumped Magico, he has a big hole to dig out of.

 

[Andre Marc]

TAS built up Magico from nothing. It's kind of like an NFL team drafting a prospect and developing him. Jon Valin nurtured and made Magico. And during that time he got to learn about all the details in his record collection that he did not know had existed.

But although Magico draws flies when reviewed or blogged about, Magico really hurt his career and credibility. Writing about how accurate or transparent something is doesn't strike up juices of many who want to experience the music's ability to connect with the emotions and the soul. Now that Valin has dumped Magico, he has a big hole to dig out of.

Woah, let's hold on a minute.

First, it IS true that TAS showed Magico undue attention from the onset, I hardly think they "made" Magico. Alon Wolf did.
He has raised the bar in many areas of speaker design.

Secondly, Jeff Fritz at Soundstage has also been VERY enthusiastic about Magico, to put it mildly. And, Michael Fremer also put his
stamp of approval on the Q5.

Lastly, I don't think Valin dumped Magico, it is more like Magico dumped him. I am sure they called back his Q5, and he just could not accommodate the
Q7, which they really want to push these days...

 

[Priaptor]

Woah, let's hold on a minute.

First, it IS true that TAS showed Magico undue attention from the onset, I hardly think they "made" Magico. Alon Wolf did.
He has raised the bar in many areas of speaker design.

Secondly, Jeff Fritz at Soundstage has also been VERY enthusiastic about Magico, to put it mildly. And, Michael Fremer also put his
stamp of approval on the Q5.

Lastly, I don't think Valin dumped Magico, it is more like Magico dumped him. I am sure they called back his Q5, and he just could not accommodate the
Q7, which they really want to push these days...

You know, I bought into the hype of "raising the bar in speaker design" and put my money to the test. I purchased Q1s which "some" believe to be the best and most accurate speaker Magico makes (while lacking the bass detail of the Q5 and Q7) and even others believe to be the "best" speaker made, along with a Constellation Centaur and all the MIT stuff that the Magico's have been voiced with. I sold it all. I think "raising the bar" is an inaccurate term. I think bringing a new and unique design is more accurate.

I spent months with the equipment, comparing it to my reference system that by no means qualifies as a "raising the bar" design and after all was said and done, I realized, Magico raised no bar. Very good, yes, great, no way. Their marketing and influence is great, not their design or sonics and I personally fell victim to the hype, but for the price I got it, no harm and another lesson learned.

 

[caesar]

....
I am so sick of the RH type reviews of this is the "best" front cover, factory tour blah blah blah. Its just to obvious to me whats going on

I guess Harley thinks this will preserve the Magico revenue stream, now that Valin has dumped them. Here's Harley on Alexandria 2, just a few short years ago:

"The Wilson Audio Alexandria X-2 Series 2 is hands-down the best loudspeaker I’ve had in my listening room in nearly 20 years of full-time reviewing. It possesses a remarkable combination of sheer explosive power and seemingly unlimited dynamics with a sublime delicacy, refinement, and subtlety. This is a speaker that “disappears” in the sense that its presentation—from the size and power of the climax of a symphony’s fourth movement to an intimate guitar and vocal performance—is determined purely by the recording.
I began this review by commenting on the X-2’s extraordinary sense of musical intimacy. At the end of the day, this is why we pursue musical realism in the home through high-performance audio equipment—to feel the composer or performer speaking directly to us. The X-2 achieves this illusive ideal better than any loudspeaker I know of."

Not much difference between his claim that Magico is the most significant product in the last 23 years and his declarations of love to Wilson.

The truth is you can't trust anyone in this hobby. The expert predictions, even if not blatantly self-interested, are often wrong. Look at economic predictions, sports predictions, etc. They are way off from reality. It's not any different for high-end audio. That's why the customers looking for audio gear need to take all expert opinions and average them out. Specific to speakers, Valin now thinks Rida-hoe is the best, Atkinson thinks MBL X-tremes are "IT", and Fremer just bought Alexandria XLF's. Those auditioning can probably add others to the list like Vivid Giya, TAD R1 (with warm amps!), YG, and another few. But the reality is that all of these are different. There is not one speaker that truly dominates another speaker on all criteria.

The criteria we evaluate the speakers to determine "BEST" is very personal. Is a Ferrari better than a Japanese mini-van? If you have a family and a dog, the 2 seat sports car is not better. For a way to meet women, I'll take the Ferrari! But the Japanese minivan is an engineering marvel in its own right: the gas mileage, the quality of manufacturing, manufacturing consistency, and even gas mileage of the minivan beats the Ferrari. However, for that visceral "UFCK YEAH" feeling, it's hard to beat the red Ferrari.


With speakers, we all have needs and objectives. Some are determined by how our references of what music sounds like have evolved. If you are a drummer in a rock band it will be different than if you are an audiophile listening to a female vocalist on your Quads for the last 35 years. Other times, people just get sick of what they have been listening to for years and want a change.

I agree that the magazines are not on the side of the customer. They have their own goals. The magazines will never compare the differences between the gear for the consumer, and their "BEST" declarations are useless. We have to average the expert opinions, shorten the list of gear to audition, and go listen for our selves. Once we do the due diligence and figure out what the best is for us, no one will be able to convince us of anything else by calling it "best".

 

[caesar]

Woah, let's hold on a minute.

First, it IS true that TAS showed Magico undue attention from the onset, I hardly think they "made" Magico. Alon Wolf did.
He has raised the bar in many areas of speaker design.

Secondly, Jeff Fritz at Soundstage has also been VERY enthusiastic about Magico, to put it mildly. And, Michael Fremer also put his
stamp of approval on the Q5.

Lastly, I don't think Valin dumped Magico, it is more like Magico dumped him. I am sure they called back his Q5, and he just could not accommodate the
Q7, which they really want to push these days...

Andre, Fremer was the first honest guy to evaluate Magico. Everyone else just came across as a lackey.

And as for Magico calling back the Q5, I seriously doubt it!!! Why would they?!?! It just doesn't make any rational sense whatsoever for Magico to do that. It was Valin who dumped the Q5 for the Estelon, quickly dumping the Estonian speaker for Rida-hoes.

 

[Andre Marc]

You know, I bought into the hype of "raising the bar in speaker design" and put my money to the test. I purchased Q1s which "some" believe to be the best and most accurate speaker Magico makes (while lacking the bass detail of the Q5 and Q7) and even others believe to be the "best" speaker made, along with a Constellation Centaur and all the MIT stuff that the Magico's have been voiced with. I sold it all. I think "raising the bar" is an inaccurate term. I think bringing a new and unique design is more accurate.

I spent months with the equipment, comparing it to my reference system that by no means qualifies as a "raising the bar" design and after all was said and done, I realized, Magico raised no bar. Very good, yes, great, no way. Their marketing and influence is great, not their design or sonics and I personally fell victim to the hype, but for the price I got it, no harm and another lesson learned.

First, ok I will accept the fact they came with "new and unique" designs if you reject the notion they raised bar. Fair enough.

Ok, here is where my daggers come out.

First, consider yourself very fortunate to have the disposable income to spend tens of thousands of dollars on what was essentially
and audition. You obviously are on an endless search, one that will never be satisfied. For as Alan Sircom says, you have Gear Acquisition Syndrome,or GAS.

Secondly, it is no other than your self that you fell for the "hype". I cannot ever imagine this happening to me. So don't play victim. I'm going 5 years with the same core system, with the only changes being minor like a cable or two here and there, and the switch to file based playback.

I am very happy that I am not in the Absolute Sound camp (not the magazine, the theory), because I enjoy music, not sound.

All these endless debates about how to "enjoy" a system lose the fact that it IS about enjoying. In my mind all the time can't debating, pontificating, and spinning around the equipment merry go around is time away from sitting and listening.

I got off the merry go round 5 years ago. I don't want to replace my amps. I don't want to replace my speakers. I just want to consume and collect music.

I feel my reviews focus on: Does the Gear SERVE the music? And, does the gear produce an emotional connection?

Over and out.

 

[Andre Marc]

Andre, Fremer was the first honest guy to evaluate Magico. Everyone else just came across as a lackey.

And as for Magico calling back the Q5, I seriously doubt it!!! Why would they?!?! It just doesn't make any rational sense whatsoever for Magico to do that. It was Valin who dumped the Q5 for the Estelon, quickly dumping the Estonian speaker for Rida-hoes.

When you say "honest", do you mean he just did not call it the "best" lol?

Well HE did say it created new benchmarks for him in several performance parameters. I spoke
to him about it and he said it was "a speaker for the head, not the heart".

Lastly, according to Valin's blog, THEY called it back. He did not send it back.

 

[caesar]

First, ok I will accept the fact they came with "new and unique" designs if you reject the notion they raised bar. Fair enough.

Ok, here is where my daggers come out.

First, consider yourself very fortunate to have the disposable income to spend tens of thousands of dollars on what was essentially
and audition. You obviously are on an endless search, one that will never be satisfied. For as Alan Sircom says, you have Gear Acquisition Syndrome,or GAS.

Secondly, it is no other than your self that you fell for the "hype". I cannot ever imagine this happening to me. So don't play victim. I'm going 5 years with the same core system, with the only changes being minor like a cable or two here and there, and the switch to file based playback.

I am very happy that I am not in the Absolute Sound camp (not the magazine, the theory), because I enjoy music, not sound.

All these endless debates about how to "enjoy" a system lose the fact that it IS about enjoying. In my mind all the time can't debating, pontificating, and spinning around the equipment merry go around is time away from sitting and listening.

I got off the merry go round 5 years ago. I don't want to replace my amps. I don't want to replace my speakers. I just want to consume and collect music.

I feel my reviews focus on: Does the Gear SERVE the music? And, does the gear produce an emotional connection?

Over and out.

Andre, like I said above, we all have different objectives in this hobby. Sometimes it's a lot of fun to get on the merry go around. Sometimes it's painful - both physically moving it around and making wrong financial choices. What would be really cool is if the "audio press" did a better job of flushing out the differences and the tradeoffs between the gear to increase the pleasure and minimize the pain of this hobby.

 

[Priaptor]

Sorry caesar, now you crossed a line I can't let you get away with. "A Japanese mini-van". What's wrong with an American Mini-Van? Personally I would never let my three dogs ride in a Japanese Mini-Van. An SUV, maybe, a Ferrari, maybe, but never a "Japanese mini-van".

 

[caesar]

Sorry caesar, now you crossed a line I can't let you get away with. "A Japanese mini-van". What's wrong with an American Mini-Van? Personally I would never let my three dogs ride in a Japanese Mini-Van. An SUV, maybe, a Ferrari, maybe, but never a "Japanese mini-van".

I lost all love for American cars when my Buick would fish tail when I was going straight, when I was a teenager. Eventually it caught fire on the street by my house right after I parked it, and I took my time calling the fire department to make sure no one would be able to bring it back to life.

 

[Andre Marc]

Andre, like I said above, we all have different objectives in this hobby. Sometimes it's a lot of fun to get on the merry go around. Sometimes it's painful - both physically moving it around and making wrong financial choices. What would be really cool is if the "audio press" did a better job of flushing out the differences and the tradeoffs between the gear to increase the pleasure and minimize the pain of this hobby.

Sorry, I disagree. For me personally, time on the merry go around is time away from music.

Secondly, you are looking for the "audio press" to do a lot of work for you, and come up with a magic formula.

My dad bought Quad ESLs, and Quad II amps, Revox reel to reels, etc in the 60s and rolled with them for TWENTY YEARS.
That system is emblazoned in my DNA. He kept on reading the mags for entertainment but never budged until finally the speakers
and amps kept breaking.

If you read Tone, we do comparisons in most of the reviews. My recent review of the Opera Mezza at Avrev.com compared it
to THREE other speakers.

Reviews can point you in the right direction, that is it.

Lastly, everyone keeps bashing reviews, magazines, and the process..but everyone keeps on reading. Its like Stockholm Syndrome x10.

 

[Priaptor]

First, ok I will accept the fact they came with "new and unique" designs if you reject the notion they raised bar. Fair enough.

Ok, here is where my daggers come out.

First, consider yourself very fortunate to have the disposable income to spend tens of thousands of dollars on what was essentially
and audition. You obviously are on an endless search, one that will never be satisfied. For as Alan Sircom says, you have Gear Acquisition Syndrome,or GAS.

Secondly, it is no other than your self that you fell for the "hype". I cannot ever imagine this happening to me. So don't play victim. I'm going 5 years with the same core system, with the only changes being minor like a cable or two here and there, and the switch to file based playback.

I am very happy that I am not in the Absolute Sound camp (not the magazine, the theory), because I enjoy music, not sound.

All these endless debates about how to "enjoy" a system lose the fact that it IS about enjoying. In my mind all the time can't debating, pontificating, and spinning around the equipment merry go around is time away from sitting and listening.

I got off the merry go round 5 years ago. I don't want to replace my amps. I don't want to replace my speakers. I just want to consume and collect music.

I feel my reviews focus on: Does the Gear SERVE the music? And, does the gear produce an emotional connection?

Over and out.

Andre,

Well here are some daggers for you, Mr. Blowhard. I didn't just buy the stuff to try, I bought it for a second system in a second home where I was looking for a monitor setup. I wanted to put the system together in my home in FL before shipping it out to my second home. The equipment came my way because of a situation where I was able to get it at such a discount that IF I didn't like it, I could easily sell it for more than I paid for it. This was not a whim by some rich guy, but a desire to find a legitimate albeit smaller system for another location.

Unlike all the hyperbole that some reviewers put into words or the crap that some on this site claim in order to justify their purchases, I recognize and am willing to be objective and have no issue separating from a piece of equipment that I don't like. I am on no endless search and love my reference system and have had it for years now. In fact, unlike most of your readers I actually listen to the music than to the hyperbole of most reviewers.

So you can take your thesis about me and stick it where the sun don't shine.

 

[caesar]

Sorry, I disagree. For me personally, time on the merry go around is time away from music.

Secondly, you are looking for the "audio press" to do a lot of work for you, and come up with a magic formula.

My dad bought Quad ESLs, and Quad II amps, Revox reel to reels, etc in the 60s and rolled with them for TWENTY YEARS.
That system is emblazoned in my DNA. He kept on reading the mags for entertainment but never budged until finally the speakers
and amps kept breaking.

If you read Tone, we do comparisons in most of the reviews. My recent review of the Opera Mezza at Avrev.com compared it
to THREE other speakers.

Reviews can point you in the right direction, that is it.

Lastly, everyone keeps bashing reviews, magazines, and the process..but everyone keeps on reading. Its like Stockholm Syndrome x10.

Andre, I personally don't like the merry go round either, but for others it's fun to swap things out once in a while. Aren't reviewers always on the meery-go-round?

As for comparisons, the more the better. I thought Tone did comparisons, but I don't remember any, reading the amplifier issue a few months back. Personally, I think it's a sin not to highlight the differences. Like I said above, whatever anyone thinks is "best" is irrelevant, but differences matter a whole lot. But I was bouncing around on an exercise machine while reading the file on the iPad, so maybe I missed them.

 

[Priaptor]

I lost all love for American cars when my Buick would fish tail when I was going straight, when I was a teenager. Eventually it caught fire on the street by my house right after I parked it, and I took my time calling the fire department to make sure no one would be able to bring it back to life.

But caesar, come on man, a "mini-van", Japanese or American, I could never let me three dogs in those things. People yes, but not my dogs. I love those guys too much.

 

[Andre Marc]

Andre,

Well here are some daggers for you, Mr. Blowhard. I didn't just buy the stuff to try, I bought it for a second system in a second home where I was looking for a monitor setup. I wanted to put the system together in my home in FL before shipping it out to my second home. The equipment came my way because of a situation where I was able to get it at such a discount that IF I didn't like it, I could easily sell it for more than I paid for it. This was not a whim by some rich guy, but a desire to find a legitimate albeit smaller system for another location.

Unlike all the hyperbole that some reviewers put into words or the crap that some on this site claim in order to justify their purchases, I recognize and am willing to be objective and have no issue separating from a piece of equipment that I don't like. I am on no endless search and love my reference system and have had it for years now. In fact, unlike most of your readers I actually listen to the music than to the hyperbole of most reviewers.

So you can take your thesis about me and stick it where the sun don't shine.

Woah, dude! Be nice.

Ok, so you say you are not some rich guy who went on a flight of fancy. Even at a claimed "discount" it seems rather an odd
way to go about auditioning speakers. You fully admitted it was a PAID audition. So don't blame Magico, or Valin or anybody else
just because you read his reviews and got a hard on.

Secondly, you know nothing about my readers.

Where the sun don't shine? That is dark place!!!