I Am Seeking a Bit More of the CJ GOLDEN GLOW. Please Share Your Thoughts On What Newer CJ Separates to Consider

[LL21]

How is koda vs gat 2 ? thx

Hi. As a 20-year owner of CJ preamps (PV14L, ACT 2, GAT 1, GAT 2), I am an enormous admirer of their work and work ethic. The GAT 2 vs the Koda K15EX (with the latest Super-Ground announced around 2-3 years ago):

- The K15EX is just much much more resolved; akin to going from old digital to new digital
- K15EX has a clearly similar focus on all about the music...but the design's extreme focus on purity shows through. It truly is remarkable when you compare piano notes, decay and the layering of the musical tapestry where more and more layers are revealed from way in the background of the mix
- The bass is far superior in its all-out power delivery, speed and raw grumble.
- I suppose the best analogy I could make is that you make rice by boiling it in water...but then there are people who [literally] have their water flown in from another country to cook their rice. The K15EX is that latter category. Its music reveals a similarly extreme focus on absolute absolute purity.
- Genuinely stunning in its ability to reveal more depth, more layering - electronic deep house through complex choral, 4 in 5 albums sounds far more layered, details and alive in music nuance.
- But in some respects its all out purity is perhaps an even bigger standout

Hope that is somewhat helpful.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Wow look forward to reading your reports! I know you know CJ extremely well. I have been an owner of CJ preamps for 20 consecutive years or so. Really would like to read more about the ART88. The way you describe the ART88 is how I describe the GAT 2 which we owned...but I somehow feel like pure tube is something special if its CJ. An extra special touch of fine magic.

Yes, will certainly do LL.
I'll place a few notes under a new tab, as I don't want to hijack this one. It was created by Paolo who's discovered the fine musicality of CJ gear, and is now venturing towards their vintage gear to seek that golden glow. He's having fun!

Will be in touch once I'm back.
Cheers, RJ

 

[tobiasrankin]

I almost had a et5 but the deal fell through.

 

[paolo]

Yes, will certainly do LL.
I'll place a few notes under a new tab, as I don't want to hijack this one. It was created by Paolo who's discovered the fine musicality of CJ gear, and is now venturing towards their vintage gear to seek that golden glow. He's having fun!

Will be in touch once I'm back.
Cheers, RJ

Hola BDRJ,
First of all- safe travels to you. Fear not about hijacking. I'm eager to learn more. I'm enjoying the comments from others who've had experience with CJ. And I am indeed having fun. I found a source for some fine vintage tubes for both the PV5 and the MV55. 5965, 5751 and 6SN7's in particular so I look forward to a bit of prudent tube rolling.

 

[microstrip]

Hi. As a 20-year owner of CJ preamps (PV14L, ACT 2, GAT 1, GAT 2), I am an enormous admirer of their work and work ethic. The GAT 2 vs the Koda K15EX (with the latest Super-Ground announced around 2-3 years ago):

- The K15EX is just much much more resolved; akin to going from old digital to new digital (...)

Although I surely agree that the K15EX is more resolved than the GAT 2, I disagree with the analogy - it sounds unfair to the GAT2. I think that these preamplifiers apply to different types of listeners - the cj has more bloom, body and nuance, the K15EX has more resolution and definition. The matching source and speakers also need to be taken in account - your tube DAC, XLF's and Transparent Audio cables are probably a much better match to the Koda's than the cj.

 

[LL21]

Although I surely agree that the K15EX is more resolved than the GAT 2, I disagree with the analogy - it sounds unfair to the GAT2. I think that these preamplifiers apply to different types of listeners - the cj has more bloom, body and nuance, the K15EX has more resolution and definition. The matching source and speakers also need to be taken in account - your tube DAC, XLF's and Transparent Audio cables are probably a much better match to the Koda's than the cj.

Its interesting, I dont find the GAT 2 to have more nuance or more bloom/body. I found it very very clear, very pure...a nuance extremely balanced. But the challenge is that once noise floor and tube noise (occasional) come into play, the nuance is harder to discern. GAT 2 is exceptional in every way, but simply not as advanced in any way relative to the K15EX. And definitely behind in the bass where the K15EX has far greater power and resolution.

That said, I could happily have lived with the CJ GAT 2 other than that tube noise...noise floor perfectly great...and the fact that there was a once-in-a-blue-moon opportunity to explore Robert Koda K15EX which I took.

That said, I could easily imagine based on the constant advancement of the phenomenal CJ sound that the ART88 is absolutely breathtaking and potentially a genuine rival to the mighty K15EX. Who knows, it may well be even better...the world constantly innovates.

 

[microstrip]

(...) That said, I could happily have lived with the CJ GAT 2 other than that tube noise...noise floor perfectly great...and the fact that there was a once-in-a-blue-moon opportunity to explore Robert Koda K15EX which I took. (...)

Curious, the GAT 2 is noise free in my system when used with the cj ART ampifier. Perhaps with your high gain (31dB) Mephisto, that is optimized for balanced mode, its 25dB gain in single ended mode could be excessive. In fact, the GAT 2 noise specification is better than many solid state preamplfiers!

And no, I do not expect that the ART88 will ever be comparable to the K15ex - two very different types of sound. Surely, no tube preamplifier can have top solid state bass performance, although the Atmasphere MP1 was very close!

 

[tobiasrankin]

Between the koda and gat I wonder which is the more musical, richer and tonally more 'beautiful' preamp?

 

[LL21]

Between the koda and gat I wonder which is the more musical, richer and tonally more 'beautiful' preamp?

An excellent question...I think here Microstrip makes some interesting points about our system. In our case being driven by the Zanden 4-box digital, the Robert Koda is certainly more resolved...and perhaps then it did greater credit to the Zanden as a source. So the RESULT is nuanced, musical AND resolved.

The Robert Koda was a more demanding set of electronics than the CJ GAT 2/ Mephisto set up. (I also did have the CJ GAT 2 side by side with the Robert Koda K15EX with the Gryphon Mephisto for nearly a year before I got the Robert Koda K160 mono amps). And it was an absolutely instant transition to the K15EX from the CJ GAT 2 with the Mephisto as the amp. There was barely a hitch in voice at all from the standpoint of grainless, natural pure tonality. The K15EX was simply more resolved and had far better bass and was more resolved there as well.

That said, I also feel [somehow] that the Robert Koda K15EX might be more challenging in multiple other systems than the CJ GAT2. Does the GAT 2's slightly reduced resolution make it an easier playmate with other amps? Not really sure, but I could imagine so.

However, to your question, is one richer than the other? I would definitely say after having both together for some time, no. I found the transition between the two effortless in terms of character or gestalt as some say.

 

[LL21]

Curious, the GAT 2 is noise free in my system when used with the cj ART ampifier. Perhaps with your high gain (31dB) Mephisto, that is optimized for balanced mode, its 25dB gain in single ended mode could be excessive. In fact, the GAT 2 noise specification is better than many solid state preamplfiers!

And no, I do not expect that the ART88 will ever be comparable to the K15ex - two very different types of sound. Surely, no tube preamplifier can have top solid state bass performance, although the Atmasphere MP1 was very close!

I had the CJ GAT 2 and the K15EX with the Mephisto for quite some time. The GAT 2 did have tube noise, but even when it did not, it had a higher noise floor overall than the K15EX. That said, i also agree with you that the CJ GAT 2 floor is remarkable and revelatory in comparison with many preamps I have heard. Separately, on bass, i was super impressed with the bass of the CJ GAT 2...side by side, the K15EX was simply superior, but I think there are people who found the CJ GAT 2 (not just in comparison with the CJ GAT 1) to have excellent bass.

As for the ART88, I have no bias towards one design type or another...I just feel like as CJ continues to hone the formula of its music alchemy, I find that they also improve the technical capabilities as part of how they do that. And that is where I could imagine the ART88 being even quieter, more resolved...all the things that the K15EX is for me in comparison with the CJ GAT 2 which is a phenomenal preamp.

 

[Taiko Audio]

I have the ART88 / ART108A in for auditioning. I have no experience with previous CJ models but I’d say they have just a smidgen of “golden sound”. It’s faint but there, though not in a distracting manner (I value “neutrality”), noticeable most on piano. This is in direct comparison to Atmasphere MP1.1 / MA-2 and KR P135/VA200 which I’m also auditioning. I do also detect a hint of teflon capacitor colouration similar to the Atmaspheres which have the VCAP upgrades. All together they are surprisingly musical with very good image stability/positioning, they really excel in soundstage size, are very detailed but this detail is well integrated for a fatigue free listening experience, the bass is not the most controlled but it packs a punch and sounds natural on bass instruments. Definitely high level performers and they do grow on you fast, very likeable.

 

[Famester]

I have a one year old ET7S2 that I no longer need since my Horizon has a built in pre-amp.
I am considering selling it to fund other projects, such as a Taiko Extreme.
Please let me know if anyone is interested, I still haven't decided if I should sell it and at what price, so I haven't listed it in the classified.
I had an ART27A that I traded for Triangle Art M-200 monos, since I wanted to go back to monos similar to my prior set of Krells.

 

[LL21]

I have the ART88 / ART108A in for auditioning. I have no experience with previous CJ models but I’d say they have just a smidgen of “golden sound”. It’s faint but there, though not in a distracting manner (I value “neutrality”), noticeable most on piano. This is in direct comparison to Atmasphere MP1.1 / MA-2 and KR P135/VA200 which I’m also auditioning. I do also detect a hint of teflon capacitor colouration similar to the Atmaspheres which have the VCAP upgrades. All together they are surprisingly musical with very good image stability/positioning, they really excel in soundstage size, are very detailed but this detail is well integrated for a fatigue free listening experience, the bass is not the most controlled but it packs a punch and sounds natural on bass instruments. Definitely high level performers and they do grow on you fast, very likeable.

Fascinating. thank you for taking the time to post your impressions. I would be intrigued to hear that combination some day. Having spent less time with their amps, I wonder if the golden hue actually comes more from the amp than the preamp. In any event, it also is nice to get a comparison to other electronics. Enjoy.

 

[tima]

Having spent less time with their amps, I wonder if the golden hue actually comes more from the amp than the preamp.

From my experience it depends on the vintage, but generally the classic CJ sound can be had from either amps or preamps, especially when the preamp is a true preamp and not a linestage.

Back in 2006 I owned the CJ Premier 140 when the Atma-Sphere M60 monoblocks came in-house for review. I used the 140 for compare/contrast.

SoundStage! Equipment Review - Atma-Sphere M-60 Mk III Mono Amplifiers (6/2006)

 

[LL21]

From my experience it depends on the vintage, but generally the classic CJ sound can be had from either amps or preamps, especially when the preamp is a true preamp and not a linestage.

Back in 2006 I owned the CJ Premier 140 when the Atma-Sphere M60 monoblocks came in-house for review. I used the 140 for compare/contrast.

SoundStage! Equipment Review - Atma-Sphere M-60 Mk III Mono Amplifiers (6/2006)

Thank you! Great review. And yes, that makes sense. In this case, I was wondering about the ART88/108 combination. Having lived with the GAT 1, 2...my sense was that golden hue was not really their intent with these preamps...but I could believe they put a touch of golden hue into their amps based on discussions with owners of CJ's later generation amps.

In any event, I have no doubt they sound magnificent.

 

[tima]

Thank you! Great review. And yes, that makes sense. In this case, I was wondering about the ART88/108 combination. Having lived with the GAT 1, 2...my sense was that golden hue was not really their intent with these preamps...but I could believe they put a touch of golden hue into their amps based on discussions with owners of CJ's later generation amps.

In any event, I have no doubt they sound magnificent.

Yes. The later the vintage CJ preamp the more neutral it becomes relative to earlier CJ preamps and without wholly changing the basic CJ character. Same for amps. My CJ Premier 12s were warmer than the Premier 140 while the latter became more articulate.. The 140 was the direct follow-on from the Premier 12s so you'd think the sonic difference between siblings would be small. But they were not. ...

"If you are familiar with Conrad-Johnson amplifiers, you may assess, as I did, that there is more going on with the Premier 140 than the mere recapitulation of phylogeny. Let me draw an imperfect analogy. With the advent of the acclaimed ART preamplifier and its "baby ART" sibling, the Premier 16LS, C-J preamps stepped beyond the caramel, yin-like sound that was their hallmark for many years. And thus it is with the Premier 140."
--- from my Premier 140 review with comparison to Premier 12

I'd love to try the ART27A with my JBL M9500s.

 

[microstrip]

Yes. The later the vintage CJ preamp the more neutral it becomes relative to earlier CJ preamps and without wholly changing the basic CJ character. Same for amps. My CJ Premier 12s were warmer than the Premier 140 while the latter became more articulate.. The 140 was the direct follow-on from the Premier 12s so you'd think the sonic difference between siblings would be small. But they were not. ...

"If you are familiar with Conrad-Johnson amplifiers, you may assess, as I did, that there is more going on with the Premier 140 than the mere recapitulation of phylogeny. Let me draw an imperfect analogy. With the advent of the acclaimed ART preamplifier and its "baby ART" sibling, the Premier 16LS, C-J preamps stepped beyond the caramel, yin-like sound that was their hallmark for many years. And thus it is with the Premier 140."
--- from my Premier 140 review with comparison to Premier 12

I'd love to try the ART27A with my JBL M9500s.

Yes, in general more recent cj's are more neutral. But we had exceptions. The Premier 12's, that I only owned for a short time, were so warm that they could sound slow, while the previous MV125 was much more neutral and had better bass definition. And I found the great ART series III more neutral than any of its replacements, although unhappily it was very noisy - but I really regret having sold it.

Curiously the cheap entrance PV 10 was much less colored than the slow sounding PV11 at twice the price.
IMO the basic character of cj electronics has changed some what along time, although the champagne fascia remained. The complete change of capacitors from polystyrene to Teflon capacitors made a huge difference in sound type.

 

[LL21]

Yes. The later the vintage CJ preamp the more neutral it becomes relative to earlier CJ preamps and without wholly changing the basic CJ character. Same for amps. My CJ Premier 12s were warmer than the Premier 140 while the latter became more articulate.. The 140 was the direct follow-on from the Premier 12s so you'd think the sonic difference between siblings would be small. But they were not. ...

"If you are familiar with Conrad-Johnson amplifiers, you may assess, as I did, that there is more going on with the Premier 140 than the mere recapitulation of phylogeny. Let me draw an imperfect analogy. With the advent of the acclaimed ART preamplifier and its "baby ART" sibling, the Premier 16LS, C-J preamps stepped beyond the caramel, yin-like sound that was their hallmark for many years. And thus it is with the Premier 140."
--- from my Premier 140 review with comparison to Premier 12

I'd love to try the ART27A with my JBL M9500s.

Thanks for that...interesting. I have read great things about the Premier 12. Meanwhile, on the ART27A...frankly, almost all CJ amps can be monoblocked...how amazing might the 27a be monoblocked?

 

[tonytsui]

The Art88/108a combination offers much higher resolution and bass extension than the Gats2/Art300, and much depends what tubes you use in the Art88 and the v1 position of the 108a. The stock pcc88s do not have the right violin tone and extension I prefer, so after much experiment I use 2 Telefunkens upfront. For the 108a I use Mullards in the V1 position. As to bass, an audiophile friend commented that after using the Nordost Gold speaker cable, my system suddenly have bass. Previous cable was Odin 2. Yes, SS does offer higher resolution but very few provide the tonal quality I prefe.

 

[LL21]

The Art88/108a combination offers much higher resolution and bass extension than the Gats2/Art300, and much depends what tubes you use in the Art88 and the v1 position of the 108a. The stock pcc88s do not have the right violin tone and extension I prefer, so after much experiment I use 2 Telefunkens upfront. For the 108a I use Mullards in the V1 position. As to bass, an audiophile friend commented that after using the Nordost Gold speaker cable, my system suddenly have bass. Previous cable was Odin 2. Yes, SS does offer higher resolution but very few provide the tonal quality I prefe.

Wow...just saw your system: CJ ART88/108A and Magico Q7v1 with the Nordost Gold loom. I remember one of the members here being absolutely effusive about Zanden amplification with the Q7s. I can imagine you have sublime music with your setup.

Your comments about your electronics accord with where I would have expected this next generation of CJ to be based on my own personal 20 years of owning CJ electronics (mainly their preamps from PV14L thru their GAT 2). As for tubes, I also used their stock (which were much more successful than in their now much older GAT 1)...and then went to Mullards and Telefunkens (over the many years, I ended up owning both at one time or another).

FWIW, I also found the tubes benefited from the EAT Tube Dampers which (for $19 when I last bought them) were just a great buy and easy drop ins.

BTW, you left us hanging there a bit on the SS side...for someone who has the legendary CJ's latest flagships...what SS do you actually find does provide the tonal quality you prefer?