"If you don't have a $200k [speaker]..."

[microstrip]

It's not trolling when it's the truth. It's clearly visible in the impulse response graphs, and as I said before... what's interesting to me is that some people really like that crossover solution and some do not. There are always tradeoffs. Wilson clearly prefers frequency domain integration. Thiel and Vandersteen prefer time domain integration. The long driver integration tails that come along with 1st over crossovers present their own challenges. It's ok to tackle the problem in different ways.

Sorry, it is not black and white. For an example, please see:

https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/what-is-time-alignment.316669/ and the discussions in it. There are tens of similar discussions.

 

[Robh3606]

Sorry, it is not black and white. For an example, please see:

https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/what-is-time-alignment.316669/ and the discussions in it. There are tens of similar discussions.

Why are you picking a thread of varying opinions to explain this?? If you are time aligned you can see it easily in the step response. To get good summation in the frequency domain you can use more than one crossover solution to achieve that. Just because you sum flat has nothing to do with time alignment.

There are hundreds of designs using all means of crossovers always a combination of acoustic and electrical characteristics that sum properly in the frequency domain that are clearly not time aligned.

Two different things.

Rob

 

[microstrip]

Why are you picking a thread of varying opinions to explain this?? (...)

Rob

Rob,

Because it clearly shows that "time alignment" is not a black and white matter and it helps to understand the context of the Wilson Audio use of the expression.

 

[Robh3606]

Rob,

Because it clearly shows that "time alignment" is not a black and white matter and it helps to understand the context of the Wilson Audio use of the expression.

Hello Micro

Ok but what if it's marketing speak that can be shown to be flawed by applying a readily available measurement technique that cannot be debated?

It's black or white based on the results of the measurement. The step response is the golden standard for verification of a speakers time response and very well understood to be just that.

Are you questioning the measurement used??

I can understand ambiguity discussing imaging where it's a complex interaction between a loudspeaker and the room. We don't have a method to "verify" a persons perception in any quantitative way.

I think giving into marketing speak based on a single designers opinion, who has a vested interest in propagating it as fact, is not doing the hobby any good.

Marketing claims that are debatable should be debated. Just keep it civil and be respectful.

Rob

 

[microstrip]

Hello Micro

Ok but what if it's marketing speak that can be shown to be flawed by applying a readily available measurement technique that cannot be debated?

It's black or white based on the results of the measurement. The step response is the golden standard for verification of a speakers time response and very well understood to be just that.

Are you questioning the measurement used??

I can understand ambiguity discussing imaging where it's a complex interaction between a loudspeaker and the room. We don't have a method to "verify" a persons perception in any quantitative way.

I think giving into marketing speak based on a single designers opinion, who has a vested interest in propagating it as fact, is not doing the hobby any good.

Hi Rob,

Did you notice that you are now referring to time response? We have now four different combinations of "time something" that are not equivalent - it is why it is not black and white. David Wilson speakers only fit one of them - and their writings and manuals just refer to the possibility and methods of time alignment of their speakers.

Please notice that as far as I see it, we are not addressing David Wilson claims, but mostly J Atkinson writings. Again this is not new - there are hundreds of internet pages on it.

Although I understand your point I find that this kind of episodes are not doing any serious bad or good to the hobby - they are simply irrelevant.

Marketing claims that are debatable should be debated.

Surely. But not used on systematic vendettas against specific reviewers and manufacturers. I find bizarre that people who are not able or wanting to supply any kind of measurement of the products they sell focus on measurements of others.

Just keep it civil and be respectful.

Rob

Surely.

 

[Alrainbow]

time alignment is important but it’s related to phase as well as the room and seat.
This is very complex over all. And while we can measure certain aspects our perceived sound varies with us and how the room interacts.
i think Wilson audio makes an amazing product
But we need an amazing understanding and even better an installer who knows. somewhere in this thread Elliot made some comments they ring true here.
If I had to put a pin on who is correct Wilson or Atkinson I’m slighted to Wilson as he makes them and perhaps Atkinson is not understanding how to measure it correctly.

 

[Lee]

time alignment is important but it’s related to phase as well as the room and seat.
This is very complex over all. And while we can measure certain aspects our perceived sound varies with us and how the room interacts.
i think Wilson audio makes an amazing product
But we need an amazing understanding and even better an installer who knows. somewhere in this thread Elliot made some comments they ring true here.
If I had to put a pin on who is correct Wilson or Atkinson I’m slighted to Wilson as he makes them and perhaps Atkinson is not understanding how to measure it correctly.

I think John Atkinson is aligned with Wilson approach. He's in effect saying that Wilson has a different but equally effective way of achieving time coherency.

Atkinson has done some important work in measuring speaker characteristics. He has been recognized by the AES via his invitation to give the Heyser Memorial Lecture at the 131st AES Convention.

John Atkinson to give Heyser Memorial Lecture at the 131st AES Convention

Stereophile editor John Atkinson has been honored by being invited to give the Richard C. Heyser Memorial Lecture at the 131st Audio Engineering Society Convention, held at the Jacob Javits Center in Manhattan. The Memorial Lecture was established in May 1999 to honor the memory of the famed...

www.stereophile.com

So I would say John is a true subject matter expert.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Guys this thread is about 200 K loudspeakers or whatever .
Now its only wilson wilson wilson ........
Lets talk about Rockport Kharma Magico etc

 

[Audiophile666]

Guys this thread is about 200 K loudspeakers or whatever .
Now its only wilson wilson wilson ........
Lets talk about Rockport Kharma Magico etc

Magico is a million years more technically advanced than Wilson .
In house and not outsourced drivers
Not to mention the use of a (relatively) simple tweeter vs probably the most advanced tweeter on the planet in the Magicos .
All the other drivers are also made from much more expensive/advanced driver matriels
Not to mention the use of Klippel and other measurements

 

[Elliot G.]

My point here was not the SQ or the value of any brand and in particular the large Wilson speakers but rather the complexity of set up and proper installation.
Those who want to argue have hijacked the conversation to get away from the reports of wildly different and non quality results.
I do believe that these speakers can provide excellent sound and people choose which "version of the truth" they are willing to purchase and accept as their favorite,
This does not however take away from the seperate skill set that is required to actually get the speakers and system to sound at thier best, or correct or whatever words we choose.
My experience is that this is a very difficult and a wildly varying result . I don't want to put any brand down but there was some very good sounding systems and many bad ones. Are all the good ones the good stuff and the bad ones the bad stuff? I dont think so.
We have many here that do not understand the influences of room, system and set up particularly with large speakers and large scale audio systems. I do not believe that just reading off a chart with a tape measure and a bubble level will get you by themselves precision alignment. Can it happen? perhaps ?
My analogy again
Your fortunate to purchase a Steinway Grand Piano
Does that mean you can tune it?
Does that mean you can play it?
Does that mean you can criticize the worlds best Pianist?
Does the mean you can play at Carnegie Hall and people pay to see you?

Different levels of experience and different levels of skill have a huge influence on the results.

Again I ask if it was so easy why can't everyone do it?

 

[andromedaaudio]

Magico is a million years more technically advanced than Wilson .
In house and not outsourced drivers
Not to mention the use of a (relatively) simple tweeter vs probably the most advanced tweeter on the planet in the Magicos .
All the other drivers are also made from much more expensive/advanced driver matriels
Not to mention the use of Klippel and other measurements

Many brands are more advanced then wilson not only magico .
But ....... high tech design / materials don t automatically lead to better / more natural sound either

 

[Lee]

Guys this thread is about 200 K loudspeakers or whatever .
Now its only wilson wilson wilson ........
Lets talk about Rockport Kharma Magico etc

Our local dealer hifibuys just picked up Rockport. Really great line. The Cygnus sounded really terrific.

 

[Lee]

Magico is a million years more technically advanced than Wilson .
In house and not outsourced drivers
Not to mention the use of a (relatively) simple tweeter vs probably the most advanced tweeter on the planet in the Magicos .
All the other drivers are also made from much more expensive/advanced driver matriels
Not to mention the use of Klippel and other measurements

Uh, I have been to the factory. The drivers are designed in-house but not made in-house. Same as Wilson.

The better example is Audio Group Denmark in Aalborg (been there as well)...Borreson makes much of their driver in house. They do have to use the research university in Aarhus to do the vapor depositing I believe.

 

[Elliot G.]

time alignment is important but it’s related to phase as well as the room and seat.
This is very complex over all. And while we can measure certain aspects our perceived sound varies with us and how the room interacts.
i think Wilson audio makes an amazing product
But we need an amazing understanding and even better an installer who knows. somewhere in this thread Elliot made some comments they ring true here.
If I had to put a pin on who is correct Wilson or Atkinson I’m slighted to Wilson as he makes them and perhaps Atkinson is not understanding how to measure it correctly.

I personally set up over 20 pairs of IRS/Genesis back in the day and had one in my home for over 2 years that experience was very valuable and perhaps I knew more than someone just reading the installation manual.
Jim Smith and Stirling Trayle have set up hundreds of systems, Pedro in England may be another set up master that is great to hear but one must realize that this group is far smaller than those that just think they know.
Along time ago I worked for a Ferrari Dealer that my car experienced friend and I wanted to purchase. I went to many track events for the club. There were as many as 50 cars at some of those events. Take a guess at the number that took their cars on the track and those that could actually drive it?
Owning one is far from the same as being quailified to drive it on a race track. I thought I was a good driver untill I sat in the passenger seat of a pro and screamed like a little girl.

 

[Lee]

My point here was not the SQ or the value of any brand and in particular the large Wilson speakers but rather the complexity of set up and proper installation.
Those who want to argue have hijacked the conversation to get away from the reports of wildly different and non quality results.
I do believe that these speakers can provide excellent sound and people choose which "version of the truth" they are willing to purchase and accept as their favorite,
This does not however take away from the seperate skill set that is required to actually get the speakers and system to sound at thier best, or correct or whatever words we choose.
My experience is that this is a very difficult and a wildly varying result . I don't want to put any brand down but there was some very good sounding systems and many bad ones. Are all the good ones the good stuff and the bad ones the bad stuff? I dont think so.
We have many here that do not understand the influences of room, system and set up particularly with large speakers and large scale audio systems. I do not believe that just reading off a chart with a tape measure and a bubble level will get you by themselves precision alignment. Can it happen? perhaps ?
My analogy again
Your fortunate to purchase a Steinway Grand Piano
Does that mean you can tune it?
Does that mean you can play it?
Does that mean you can criticize the worlds best Pianist?
Does the mean you can play at Carnegie Hall and people pay to see you?

Different levels of experience and different levels of skill have a huge influence on the results.

Again I ask if it was so easy why can't everyone do it?

I cannot agree more on the importance of setup and the extremely rare person like Jim or Stirling who can do it well.

 

[andromedaaudio]

@Lee

Why dont you / they organize a real shootout in the US , like they do with motorcycles .
For example stack all the latest midrange models up against each other ( the 50 K euros class)
Take 6 - 10 models and take 3 or 4 reviewers to give their opinion not only one
Set them all up in a good listening room .
Wilson DAW , Kharma DB9 , Rockport Cygnus , Magico S5 mk 2 , Von schweikert , Gobel , FM acoustics whatever .

Then at least you give the impression they all have a fair chance .

Here is how they do it with motor cycles

 

[Audiophile666]

Many brands are more advanced then wilson not only magico .
But ....... high tech design / materials don t automatically lead to better / more natural sound either

I'm not sure I agree
Newer technology +better driver materials + measurements (especially Klippel)
Lead to more accurate and distortion free sound that's otherwise not possible .

 

[Lee]

@Lee

Why dont you / they organize a real shootout in the US , like they do with motorcycles .
For example stack all the latest midrange models up against each other ( the 50 K euros class)
Take 6 - 10 models and take 3 or 4 reviewers to give their opinion not only one
Set them all up in a good listening room .
Wilson DAW , Kharma DB9 , Rockport Cygnus , Magico S5 mk 2 , Von schweikert , Gobel , FM acoustics whatever .

Then at least you give the impression they all have a fair chance .

Here is how they do it with motor cycles

I would be up for that but I no longer work for TAS.

 

[Elliot G.]

I cannot agree more on the importance of setup and the extremely rare person like Jim or Stirling who can do it well.

and yet arent you the person that said setting Wilsons is easy just read the graph?

It may be easier for Jim Smith since has experience and the skill set.
It wasn't so easy for the 9 pairs at MOC and in many other places.
There is a wide diversity here and to me there seems to be a bit of the "kings new clothes"
I don't hear the same widely diverse results from other brands.

Lastly just because one claims some techincal advance does not mean that it is a sonic advance.

Making a different basket or naming a material with a letter or building a new footer is at worse marketing BS and maybe something better but if it is its not because it said so in the literature

 

[Audiophile666]

Uh, I have been to the factory. The drivers are designed in-house but not made in-house. Same as Wilson.

The better example is Audio Group Denmark in Aalborg (been there as well)...Borreson makes much of their driver in house. They do have to use the research university in Aarhus to do the vapor depositing I believe.

I'm not sure they are designed in house
Maybe they customize then and just buy off the shelf drivers but they don't design then from the ground up
In any case I prefer in house drivers , like Focal etc
It's on a different level than outsourced drivers