In wall cables for EU 230V circuit

[mtemur]

We would only use a 32 amp rated cable for a directly wired high-powered device. We usually have a 16 amp circuit breaker on 2.5 mm mains cable. The 13 amp rating of plugs and sockets and the use of 13 amp fuses in UK plugs is to prevent the sockets and cables plugged into the socket from overheating. There are plenty of choices for 2.5 mm multifilament mains cables that would provide the flexibility @luca.pelliccioli requires. 32 amp wire tends to be solid core (I’ve never seen anything else), provide no electrical benefit and would likely be impossible to install because the conductors are too thick (6 mm) for the wall receptacle.

Here in the UK, a standard slow blow 13 amp fuse will run at 1.6 to 1.9 of the rated current for 30 minutes before blowing. That’s about 24 amps. The circuit breakers have a higher rating (16 amp for 13 amp conductors and 40 amp for 32 amp conductors) but trip much faster. If you have any wiring issues, it’s always going to be the circuit breaker to trip and not the fuse to blow.

So @luca.pelliccioli is far better doing what he is planning on doing and running several cables that will provide him with the flexibility and current that he requires, and I’m sure his electrician and his conditioners will deal with any grounding issues. I use the PM156 that he’s been using for a few years until getting the Gryphon. In the EU and UK get a fully compliant installation and you shouldn’t have any problems. The situation is different from the USA, we have strict codes and domestic wiring systems have to be certified by registered test electricians.

I think in Italy they have 16 amp and 10 amp receptacles and they look like they will only take a 2.5 mm cable. So it looks much the same as the UK. 2.5 mm is 14 AWG. 6 mm is 10 AWG. I presume in America you use thicker cable because you’re running low voltage and higher current. Here in the UK we use 1.5 mm cable for lighting (16 AWG) because lighting uses far less power and it’s far more practical.

I would like to adress all the things you mentioned but IOT keep it short I will only point cable type. Don’t bother with multi stranded wire. It’s is the wrong choice and never sounds as it should independent from cable quality. However solid core is better in all areas regarding SQ as long run in wall cables.

 

[agisthos]

I used the Gigawatt LC-Y EVO in-wall cable. Made in the EU so I presume perfectly rated for 230V. Its solid core 4mm2 size and affordable.
It has a drain wire that is recommended you connect to earth at the fuse box, but leave to float at the wall end.

Anyway it sounded better than my standard in-wall wiring. I am sure some of these in-wall cables will perform better than others but doing a comparison is almost impossible.

 

[mtemur]

I used the Gigawatt LC-Y EVO in-wall cable. Made in the EU so I presume perfectly rated for 230V. Its solid core 4mm2 size and affordable.
It has a drain wire that is recommended you connect to earth at the fuse box, but leave to float at the wall end.

Anyway it sounded better than my standard in-wall wiring. I am sure some of these in-wall cables will perform better than others but doing a comparison is almost impossible.

Good choice.

 

[Amir]

My best advice: don’t proceed unless you’re using solid core. I can’t stress enough how crucial this is. Avoid stranded cables, even the highest quality won’t perform as well. For a dedicated AC line longer than 5 meters, solid core is essential—there’s no substitute. Also, while you’re at it, consider removing the Furutech NCF. I understand there aren’t many good alternatives for Schuko receptacles, but the NCF just doesn’t sound good. If you or anyone thinks otherwise I’m sorry.

Could you please describe more about your experience with solidcore vs stranded cables?

I had both types :
1- Stranded cable 10mm2 (8AWG)
2- Solidcore 16mm2 (6AWG , not single core , it includes 8 x 2mm2 solidcore wire)

I did not have single core wire but If you have any experience please share?

Thank you

I agree you furutech and most other hifi companies are not as good as oyaide.

I agree you schuko is not very good for high current audio applications.

I do not use shielded hifi cables between ac panel and my audio system. I use regular cheap non-shielded cable .

 

[QuadDiffuser]

I would like to adress all the things you mentioned but IOT keep it short I will only point cable type. Don’t bother with multi stranded wire. It’s is the wrong choice and never sounds as it should independent from cable quality. However solid core is better in all areas regarding SQ as long run in wall cables.

I'm in the process of deciding what type of copper conductor to use in the delivery of 240V 50Hz AC power from my dedicated sub-MCB box to my six US-style Furutech duplex outlets, likely using multi-stranded 6mm2 copper conductors for both the Live and Neutral wires (tightly twisted together in a spiral), and multi-stranded 10mm2 copper conductor for the Ground wire.

Why might solid core in-wall AC cable be better than the stranded equivalent? What might the audible differences be? Might you be able to share any URL links to White Papers which might explain why, in terms of electromagnetic coupling, or perhaps copper conductor oxidation? Thank you!

 

[mtemur]

Dear @Amir and @QuadDiffuser,

In my experience, solid-core wire consistently outperforms multi-stranded wire, offering faster response, a fuller midrange, and more controlled bass. Once you hear solid core, there’s no going back. This conclusion isn’t based on one or two trials; it’s the result of nearly 20 years of hands-on experience. For AC lines longer than 5-10 meters, I firmly believe solid core is essential. Even the best multi-stranded wire can’t match the liveliness, control, and speed of solid core. I heard solid core and multi stranded from non-audiophile brands and multi stranded from PS audio, Furitech etc.

Years ago, a few friends and I compared a 20-meter double-run silver Kondo Avocado (custom-made) against a 5.3mm solid-core Oyaide 102SSC 2.6. Both AC lines ran continuously from the meter to the receptacle without any interruptions. To our ears, the solid core was noticeably better. We all use Kondo electronics and silver cables (preamp, power amp, SUT, phono, interconnect, power cord, etc.) and are fully committed to Kondo’s sound—there’s simply no comparison. I share this background to convey how strongly we feel about Kondo’s performance. Yet, despite our dedication, we preferred the solid-core Oyaide over the multi-stranded Kondo Avocado for AC lines, as Avocado was primarily designed as a power cord.

That said, solid-core wire is unsuitable as a short power cord, where multi-stranded excels. For example, with a 2-meter power cord, multi-stranded wire is a must, which is why we exclusively use silver Kondo power cords. We’d only give up our Kondo power cords under extreme duress! If multi-stranded wire were superior for long AC lines, we would’ve kept the 20-meter Kondo Avocado, but we didn’t.

In summary:
• Long in-wall AC lines should be solid core.
• Short power cords should be multi-stranded.
While there’s no white paper to back this up, anyone claiming otherwise is, in my view, simply mistaken.

P.S. it takes a lot of time a solid core ro fully burn in. My 25m line took almost a year connected to refrigerator.

 

[QuadDiffuser]

Mtemur, hank you for sharing your experience and advice!

The Oyaide EE/F-S 2.6v2 is the most current model:

EE/F-S 2.6 V2

Ultimate 2.6mm solid core in-wall AC power cable with 102SSC

www.oyaide.com

Apart from the solid core conductors, might there have been other factors such as dielectric, metallurgy, shielding foil, drainage wire, or winding geometry which may have contributed to its superior performance, relative to the Kondo Avocado? Definitely not easy to do, but would be super interesting to conduct an audition by normalizing variables as much as possible, so we're genuinely comparing similar-gauged multistrand copper conductors vs. solid core copper conductor...

 

[mtemur]

The Oyaide EE/F-S 2.6v2 is the most current model:

That's the one I'm using.

Apart from the solid core conductors, might there have been other factors such as dielectric, metallurgy, shielding foil, drainage wire, or winding geometry which may have contributed to its superior performance, relative to the Kondo Avocado? Definitely not easy to do, but would be super interesting to conduct an audition by normalizing variables as much as possible, so we're genuinely comparing similar-gauged multistrand copper conductors vs. solid core copper conductor...

All the factors you’ve mentioned indeed affect a cable’s final performance, but they don’t alter the cable’s core function or the purpose it was designed for. Indeed Kondo Avocado isn’t outperformed by Oyaide or any other power cord. Each topology (solid core vs multi stranded) has its specific application based on its design and intended use. The multi-stranded Kondo Avocado is crafted as a power cord, while the solid-core Oyaide is intended for use as a longer AC line. My point is that they aren’t interchangeable. For instance, if you tried a 2-meter solid-core Oyaide as a power cord in your setup, it would likely sound terrible—trust me on this. I’ve also tested other multi-stranded cables as long, dedicated AC lines, and none performed as well as the Kondo Avocado.

 

[Amir]

Dear @Amir and @QuadDiffuser,

In my experience, solid-core wire consistently outperforms multi-stranded wire, offering faster response, a fuller midrange, and more controlled bass. Once you hear solid core, there’s no going back. This conclusion isn’t based on one or two trials; it’s the result of nearly 20 years of hands-on experience. For AC lines longer than 5-10 meters, I firmly believe solid core is essential. Even the best multi-stranded wire can’t match the liveliness, control, and speed of solid core. I heard solid core and multi stranded from non-audiophile brands and multi stranded from PS audio, Furitech etc.

Years ago, a few friends and I compared a 20-meter double-run silver Kondo Avocado (custom-made) against a 5.3mm solid-core Oyaide 102SSC 2.6. Both AC lines ran continuously from the meter to the receptacle without any interruptions. To our ears, the solid core was noticeably better. We all use Kondo electronics and silver cables (preamp, power amp, SUT, phono, interconnect, power cord, etc.) and are fully committed to Kondo’s sound—there’s simply no comparison. I share this background to convey how strongly we feel about Kondo’s performance. Yet, despite our dedication, we preferred the solid-core Oyaide over the multi-stranded Kondo Avocado for AC lines, as Avocado was primarily designed as a power cord.

That said, solid-core wire is unsuitable as a short power cord, where multi-stranded excels. For example, with a 2-meter power cord, multi-stranded wire is a must, which is why we exclusively use silver Kondo power cords. We’d only give up our Kondo power cords under extreme duress! If multi-stranded wire were superior for long AC lines, we would’ve kept the 20-meter Kondo Avocado, but we didn’t.

In summary:
• Long in-wall AC lines should be solid core.
• Short power cords should be multi-stranded.
While there’s no white paper to back this up, anyone claiming otherwise is, in my view, simply mistaken.

P.S. it takes a lot of time a solid core ro fully burn in. My 25m line took almost a year connected to refrigerator.

Thank you very much for interesting information

 

[Kingrex]

Dear @Amir and @QuadDiffuser,

In my experience, solid-core wire consistently outperforms multi-stranded wire, offering faster response, a fuller midrange, and more controlled bass. Once you hear solid core, there’s no going back. This conclusion isn’t based on one or two trials; it’s the result of nearly 20 years of hands-on experience. For AC lines longer than 5-10 meters, I firmly believe solid core is essential. Even the best multi-stranded wire can’t match the liveliness, control, and speed of solid core. I heard solid core and multi stranded from non-audiophile brands and multi stranded from PS audio, Furitech etc.

Years ago, a few friends and I compared a 20-meter double-run silver Kondo Avocado (custom-made) against a 5.3mm solid-core Oyaide 102SSC 2.6. Both AC lines ran continuously from the meter to the receptacle without any interruptions. To our ears, the solid core was noticeably better. We all use Kondo electronics and silver cables (preamp, power amp, SUT, phono, interconnect, power cord, etc.) and are fully committed to Kondo’s sound—there’s simply no comparison. I share this background to convey how strongly we feel about Kondo’s performance. Yet, despite our dedication, we preferred the solid-core Oyaide over the multi-stranded Kondo Avocado for AC lines, as Avocado was primarily designed as a power cord.

That said, solid-core wire is unsuitable as a short power cord, where multi-stranded excels. For example, with a 2-meter power cord, multi-stranded wire is a must, which is why we exclusively use silver Kondo power cords. We’d only give up our Kondo power cords under extreme duress! If multi-stranded wire were superior for long AC lines, we would’ve kept the 20-meter Kondo Avocado, but we didn’t.

In summary:
• Long in-wall AC lines should be solid core.
• Short power cords should be multi-stranded.
While there’s no white paper to back this up, anyone claiming otherwise is, in my view, simply mistaken.

P.S. it takes a lot of time a solid core ro fully burn in. My 25m line took almost a year connected to refrigerator.

100% agree. Done the same type of test with all sorts of wire. Solid core is always best inwall.

 

[agisthos]

Is it not so much that solid core is best in-wall, but that solid core is best for long runs? And in-wall always happens to be long runs...

 

[Kingrex]

I don't know there is any benefit to stranded other than flexibility. I hear ribbon power cables are good. Thats a solid. Also, individual strands that are insulated. Like Inakustik or even Anti Cable.

 

[Gregm]

Thanks for your answer.

I’m not an expert indeed and any suggestion is much appreciated.

Unfortunately solid core is not an option, due to bending required along the run inside the conduits. I have the dedicated panel in a room close to the system, it means a max 7-10 meters length is needed.

I would echo the advice above: for 7+ metres it's best to have solid-core, so just keep what you already have. As far as I know, solid core 2.5mm is the most common standard in the EU (where I also live).
Instead of losing sleep over the wire and the sockets (the futurechs are very good as far as I know), may I suggest you try placing DC blockers in the power line (of course you'll get an electrician to connect them ).
You could try this first using cheap units from China, then move onto the heavyweights (which might NOT be needed... go figure!). I improved the perceived clarity & palpability with two daisy-chained DC blockers on my source power lines.
Good luck!

 

[Kingrex]

I’m evaluating an upgrade to be realized next spring along with a “light refurbishment” of my room (again).

I have 5 dedicated lines from a dedicated panel that run separately to 5 Furutech SWS NCF wall sockets. Currently I’m using common 2,5 mm2 wires, phase neutral earth each, at least common here in Italy I mean.

Having 220V electricity the AWG required might be different than typical 10 AWG used in 120V systems, that general consensus in audiophile world seems to agree as the best solution.
Solid is not an option, then only stranded copper is doable due to the size and shape of conduits.

The maximum diameter should be 1,2-1,3 mm, shielding included for each cable, otherwise I have to limit to maximum 2 dedicated lines (it would imply a few sockets connected in parallel from the same line).

A dealer offered me these ones:

Rubber Sleeve Cable Titanex ®; 3 x 2.50 mm²; rubber, Ø 12,50 mm; black | 700-0101-0325TI

You won‘t make a mistake...if you go with the flow, for the H07RN-F rubber jacket lead is one of the best-selling cables on the world market. It can be used as a power line for audio components, spotlights and heavy machinery (mechanical engineering) and…

www.sommercable.com

SUPRA LoRad 3x2.5 SPC (Silver Plated Copper)FULLY SHIELDED POWER CABLE

CABLE ONLY -DIY Supra LoRad SPC - Silver Plated Copper mains flex 40TH Anniversary cable! HiFI Choice Recommended April 2017 We proudly present a brand new LoRad mains flex version comprising Silver Plated Copper strands for dramatically improved conductivity properties in addition to the Supra...

supracables.co.nz

While an audiophile friend suggested me this one:

Alpha Nano-Ag-Au Power Cable FP-S032N & FP-S35N | FURUTECH

Note* FP-S35N & FP-S032N have the same specifications <br /> Voltage rating: 20A 125V / 16A 250V

www.furutech.com

Any European tech guy/electrical expert can give me some suggestions?

Any member here who can share some experience with 220V in wall audiophile cables?

TIA

I have specified projects in europe and asia. Not Italy. I'm surprised your not able to use a solid core non metalic or metalic sheathed cable that is embedded into the plaster.

I have never seen a 16 awg solid that won't pull in pipe. I would ask a different electrian and look for a wire that is more like 1.6 or 2.0. I agree, larger than 2 is not necessary. But 1.62 solid (14 awg) would probably meet spec and UL for attachment to outlets. 2.0 may not. Ask more than 1 contractor.

 

[Kingrex]

Why don't you skip the remodel of electrical and try an appropriate sized battery and inverter. I am confident it will rival or beat most electrical upgrades if done right.

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

Thanks for suggesting that but I’m not a tech guy so I’m asking help to audio and electrical experts here around. First thing first I had an EE who analyzed my mains, with an instrument attached to the panel for a week. It happened last year after my room refurbishment when I built dedicated lines.
At least 50 pages of graphs that I can’t understand of course!
During last months a few experts (and audiophiles) were able to interpret the analysis and they conveyed the current in my home is pretty good for audio purposes. There aren’t problems to solve actually.
They are suggesting to focus on other areas to improve the sound quality. Having planned for next March a light renovation (again) of the room, only to have a different acoustic treatment of the front wall, I would have the possibility to replace/upgrade the cables of the dedicated circuits as well. Is it worth it? This is the question I am trying to answer, unfortunately in my total ignorance in this matter.
The experts are saying that the only useful I could do is re-running the wires twisting phase and neutral, and/or increasing the size from 2.5mm2 to 4mm2 but they are also saying that I have to keep my expectations low. And they recommend not using anything else before the dedicated panel (UPSs, inverters, or similar things).
And above all I would like to intervene only if it is really worth it and obviously without running the risk of degrading a starting situation that all in all is good. So focusing only on the wires shouldn’t be so difficult or harmful in my opinion. The alternative is keeping all as it is. That’s all.

 

[Kingrex]

I am an electrical expert. I have been employed as an electrician since 1995. I have seen a lot. I have studied audio power for maybe 10 years now.

If you have dedicated circuits and all you do is up the gauge and twist the wire, you will hear a little more impact and dynamics. It won't alter clarity or background noise. If you were adding subs and growingvthe system, it becomes necessary to add circuits.

Yes, room treatments may bring more gain than power.

If you put a appropriately sized battery and inverter into your room, you may well wash a lot of veil off the music you did not know was there. Soundstage and bass speed may change too. Usually for the better. If you didn't like it, the parts would sell pretty quick. Maybe loose $1000.

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

How I wish you were here, I would be happy to accept and pay for your competent help!

The good news is that my current is (apparently) decent and I don't have to solve a particular problem. I still have a few months to decide if and how to proceed. In the meantime, thank you very much for your suggestions.

 

[Kingrex]

If my house were being remodeling and walls were opening, I absolutely would run good dedicated wires to my stereo. That is never wrong if the house is being opened up.

If however the only reason to open the walls extensively is to bring circuits to the room, I would first investigate a battery/inverter solution.

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

I have already built 2 years ago the infrastructure of PVC conduits, they are mounted externally from the walls in my basement (the listening room).The dedicated panel (pic below) is mounted on the adjacent garage, and was also mounted a dedicated PVC conduit to the main point of distribution of the electrical service provider, where are running the 10mm2 wires as a starting point, separately from a second run of wires that are connected to a different breaker panel (the general one which serves the house).

All the acoustic treatments are covering (pics below) the walls, this is the reason why I could have a chance to re-run the wires next March, having already scheduled a reposition of a few acoustic panels and furniture in the room. Otherwise this kind of job, if only intended for replacing the wires inside the PVC pipes would be a PITA and never worth the effort.

I have 5 circuit breakers in the dedicated panel. From there there are 2 PVC conduits, 1 goes to the front wall, 1 goes to the side wall.
The first one runs 3 circuits (phase, neutral and earth = 9 2.5mm2 wires in total) inside, that are feeding 3 Furutech SWS single Schoko sockets, dedicated to the front wall rack (Gryphon PowerZone > MSB amp > MSB DAC > PSA Transport). Actually just 2 sockets in use (one for the PowerZone and one for Scherzinger MULTi protector soon coming).
The second PVC pipe runs (phase, neutral and earth = 6 2.5mm2 wires in total) inside, that are feeding 2 Furutech SWS single Schoko sockets, dedicated to the side wall rack (Puritan PSM-156 > digital and analog sources).

In pics attached you can a few PVC pipes, just one is the above described, while others are non-dedicated lines already existing (inside the wall) not intended for audio purposes, and a third PVC pipe running internet fiber, which is dedicated to music (from the external of the house with a separate ISP bill).

Yes, I’m running multiple circuits (made of 3 wires each) in one PVC conduit.And phase and neutral were not twisted at that time.
Yes, I’m running in parallel multiple earth wires in one PVC conduit, one for each wall socket.
Both are practices that you don’t like, I know.

So, I could improve a little bit the infrastructure in March, if it worth, just rethinking the running wires and Schuko sockets. This is the plan I’m evaluating within March.

Thank you.