I've pondered whether to spring for one last hurrah SACD player, having gone through my fair share of them, all at the top of the range. The Esoteric K-01 would be the one - but the appreciation of the Yen in the last few years makes it the cost of a Mini Cooper. Moreover, I begin to cost average each of my SACDs, which can't be more than 200 and that's a $100 per disc premium. Since I am happy with my redbook playback and want to stick with them (Spectral and Boulder), it seems lunacy to spring that much for SACD - and yes I realize I can sell some of my other gear.
Interest in New Transports
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
Hi Amir,
Gary has some bona fides relative to credibility and high-profile gear. Personally, I remain content with redbook conveyed through an Audio Note DAC and either an Esoteric or Forsell CD transport. Of course, what I believe would deliver the sonic spectacular is analog R2R
Will you have one at the shop?
-Sam
Gary has some bona fides relative to credibility and high-profile gear. Personally, I remain content with redbook conveyed through an Audio Note DAC and either an Esoteric or Forsell CD transport. Of course, what I believe would deliver the sonic spectacular is analog R2R
Will you have one at the shop?
-Sam
Yes, I hope to have a R2R. Don't hit me. But we don't even have a pre-amp in the chain!!! This is as pure as it gets right now. PC->Asynch USB->DAC->Power amp. The Dac is providing the volume control. Truth to be told, with our new 53 amps, I have turn its level way, way down now, causing resolution loss. So most likely we will now get a ML pre-amp so that we can run the DAC full level. Once there, the R2R can come into the picture.
Curious, amir. What method are you using to determine that you have reoslution loss?
Frank
Simple one. We started with the 532H amps. These are 200 watts/channel machines. With them, we would play 6 to 10 db below max reference, powering the Revel Salon 2s. They would sound wonderful until the last 6 db below reference where they would run out of juice.
We then got these white beauties:
The 532 reference pushed the wattage up to 400. I noticed immediately that when I listened at normal level, we had improved bass response and no stress at even the max level. But I had lost some of the low level detail and resolution. I then realized we were playing at lower volumes now due to increased gain of this amp. By turning the level higher, we would get the resolution back but then it was borderline too loud. If you backed off, you could hear the sound getting flat.
Then we got the 53s at 500 watts. The improvement in bass control was stronger yet, and power appeared unlimited. But now, we were forced to play at 15 to 20 db down from reference. The sound got even more anemic. Turning it up 10 db fixed that, but we almost had the ceiling falling down on us! The 53 combo with Salon 2 can be scary powerful!
This is the theory anyway until we get a pre-amp in there to confirm. That said, I have done a lot of testing on digital volume controls, seeing how we were always trying to improve the one in Windows. So I am quite familiar with their signature. The one in Berkeley is quite good (better than the one in Windows). But still loses resolution. Berkeley folks say the same occurs in analog space with the noise floor coming up. That is true on paper but the knee in the curve may be different.
We then got these white beauties:
The 532 reference pushed the wattage up to 400. I noticed immediately that when I listened at normal level, we had improved bass response and no stress at even the max level. But I had lost some of the low level detail and resolution. I then realized we were playing at lower volumes now due to increased gain of this amp. By turning the level higher, we would get the resolution back but then it was borderline too loud. If you backed off, you could hear the sound getting flat.
Then we got the 53s at 500 watts. The improvement in bass control was stronger yet, and power appeared unlimited. But now, we were forced to play at 15 to 20 db down from reference. The sound got even more anemic. Turning it up 10 db fixed that, but we almost had the ceiling falling down on us! The 53 combo with Salon 2 can be scary powerful!
This is the theory anyway until we get a pre-amp in there to confirm. That said, I have done a lot of testing on digital volume controls, seeing how we were always trying to improve the one in Windows. So I am quite familiar with their signature. The one in Berkeley is quite good (better than the one in Windows). But still loses resolution. Berkeley folks say the same occurs in analog space with the noise floor coming up. That is true on paper but the knee in the curve may be different.
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
That's strange.... many power amplifiers these days have standardized to a voltage gain of 20x or 26dB. Going to a higher power amp shouldn't give you louder at the same input voltage from the DAC with the same loudspeakers. They just have a higher headroom, better bass control, etc. Why are you getting less resolution and louder when you are going to more powerful amps in the same line? Unless Mark Levinson intentionally has higher gain for their higher power amps???
Let me say that I have not measured anything. This is all ad-hoc.
It could be the power of bass that is causing us to turn the volume down lower.
That said, walk me through this. If in digital domain I play 0dbfs, would you not expect the output of the amps to be different?
It could be the power of bass that is causing us to turn the volume down lower.
That said, walk me through this. If in digital domain I play 0dbfs, would you not expect the output of the amps to be different?
As Gary says, interesting ... . I would be tempted to put together a simple fixed resistor voltage divider using decent quality metal film units, so that 0dB corresponded to the max volume in normal use, and compare that to the pre-amp. Yet another dialectic, perhaps!
Frank
It's all about the gain of the amps, as Gary said. If different then output of amps different. Try running and comparing the different amps at say -20dB, if volumes audibly about the same then gain is not the problem, rather the lesser amps are compressing badly at 0dB drive.
Frank
Sorry, last thought. Try a fixed resistance divider giving you 10dB cut, that will probably be ideal, you'll need to know the input impedance of the amp. Then 0dB drive against 53's should bring the ceiling down -- just right, as Goldilocks would say!
Frank
Frank
At the risk of being tarred and feathered, I have read the comments about dbpoweramp and they sound great, BUT I am a Mac user, so what do I do? Also repeatedly told at CES, as well as audtioned, people say that iTunes does a fine job on the ripping side. I would be very interested in what people think is the best way to rip in the Mac world.
I'm getting great results with XLD. It uses AccurateRip for confirmation of successful rip.
Lee
I think ripping with iTunes when error correction is enabled is as good as anything.
Amir,
As far as I know, Mark Levinson amplifiers have 26.8 dB gain and 100 kohm impedance - loudness should not depend on amplifier. Welcome to the illusionist club!
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Many power amplifiers have a 20x voltage gain - that is, the input voltage x 20 gives you the output voltage. That is commonly rounded in the specifications to a 26dB voltage gain. So, 1V at the input gives you 20V at the output.
0dBFS is the sine wave digital input to the DAC. Different DACs have different output. For example, at full volume, the Weiss DAC202 the XLR outputs can be set to 8.15V, 4.15V, 2.12V or 1.06V with a 0dBFS sinewave input. That way, the digital volume control can be used within its most effective range.
So, if set at 4.15V max output directly controlling a power amplifier without a preamp, at 0dBfs the power amp will be putting out 83V - into an 8 ohm load, that is over 860W. If the amplifier can't put out that power, then it clips.
So, at any given volume setting on the DAC, assuming that all the power amps you mentioned have the same voltage gain (check the owner's manual), they should all sound equally loud. If they don't - there's something else in play..... and there can be a lot of other things in play. You may find that they all measure the same loudness with a sine-wave. Then, you have no choice but to listen
Thanks Gary. That makes sense. Indeed, all three amps have the identical gain spec (26.8db). So the likely explanation is that the sensation of extra bass or louder transients is causing is to psychologically play the more powerful amp at lower volumes. Or maybe soft limiting was kicking in on the 532H earlier than we thought so its gain was lower than we really thought. As you rightly say, it could be many things.
I am taking a pre-amp to work today to try it out. I need to check the fidelity of the digital volume control anyway.
I am taking a pre-amp to work today to try it out. I need to check the fidelity of the digital volume control anyway.
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Or you may find that there are trade-offs for more power. There are exceptions, but I generally find that in a family of amplifiers, the more powerful ones are also lower in resolution of fine, micro-dynamic detail.
Let us know what you've found. If you're using the Berkeley, I've found that the digital volume control to be excellently implemented - but saying that is loading the deck
Will do. Rushed to work and forgot the pre-amp!!! Will do the test tomorrow.
We also got the Devialet dac+amp in today! So many toys, so little time
Will do the test tomorrow.We also got the Devialet dac+amp in today! So many toys, so little time
In this case power will be over 3400W if the load is 2 ohms. When considering clipping most people only thing about the voltage, but using current low impedance loudspeakers, some having high phase impedance angles, many amplifiers effectively clip due to current limitation much before the voltage clip is reached.
Hit you -- No Way
Once, when my spouse and I were evaluating XLR cables...ok -- interconnects -- we ran Studer A820 with Tape Project material -->cable under test -->active electronic xover -->amp -->loudspeaker.It was clear to us that we preferred the sonic spectrum of AQ Sky to Nordost Valhalla; however, we had very little control over volume when going direct from the Studer.
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