Intrigued by JBL M2 speaker system .... Opinions please ...

[jiannone]

I'd like to see Harman's blind test results pitting the M2 against the Salon, LSR6332, and P363. It might be neat to see them all fall into line, but I imagine the results would be a little less clear than that until SPL is increased beyond the capacity for the lower end speaker.

 

[amirm]

Good post Jiannone. Harman these days does not release a new speaker unless is does well in double blind tests. Whether it is a $200 in-ceiling speaker or $20,000 one, it can't be released until it meets this metric. This test includes products from many competitors. Alas, they have not released such data to public so don't think it will happen for M2 either.

For now, in my subjective sighted comparisons, as you say the M2 stands alone once you increase the SPLs. I will one day perform a direct comparison with Salon 2 at lower levels and report back what I find.

 

[jiannone]

Sean Olive and Harman have been relatively transparent regarding their process. Dr. Olive has published a significant amount of work on his blog, free for public consumption. This gives me hope to see a test like I mentioned, unlikely though it may be. I'm just wishfully thinking out loud.

 

[jiannone]

Amir, do you know if Harman's reference room was updated with the M2 or are they still using the big LSR?

 

[amirm]

Amir, do you know if Harman's reference room was updated with the M2 or are they still using the big LSR?

I don't know but can ask. Which room are you calling reference? The multi-channel theater that was redone with everest?

 

[jiannone]

I don't know but can ask. Which room are you calling reference? The multi-channel theater that was redone with everest?

Hm, I guess I hadn't heard.

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/05/harman-international-reference.html

 

[amirm]

Hm, I guess I hadn't heard.

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/05/harman-international-reference.html

Oh that room is supposed to mimic a typical living room (as far as acoustic characteristics). So pretty sure they would not put M2s there. The room I was talking about is a custom built theater with massive amplification and speakers to go with them. As I mentioned it currently has Everest in it. Given the custom install there, it will take some effort to retrofit.

We are currently looking at putting M2s in our theater in place of the JBL Synthesis speakers we have.

 

[jiannone]

Oh that room is supposed to mimic a typical living room (as far as acoustic characteristics). So pretty sure they would not put M2s there. The room I was talking about is a custom built theater with massive amplification and speakers to go with them. As I mentioned it currently has Everest in it. Given the custom install there, it will take some effort to retrofit.

We are currently looking at putting M2s in our theater in place of the JBL Synthesis speakers we have.

Thanks for the input. I wasn't aware of their theater. What Synthesis set up are you replacing?

That room is more like a state of the art studio that looks like it could be furnished as a typical living room. See this slide. There's just over 10 inches of material between the inner and external walls of the room.

 

[Ron Party]

Hi Amir.

I'm guessing you have now spent at least a little bit of time with the M2s. Can you share any of your own impressions?

Thanks.

 

[amirm]

Hi Ron. Good to hear from you. My impressions remain like my initial exposure: explosive dynamics and delicate highs. My high-dynamic range drum tracks play with insane fidelity. Yet the high-hats are that smooth Revel like sound. And I love the programmable sound. Makes it easy to dial out room resonances. It is really what would happen if you joined the best of JBL Pro and Revel line.

And this is in our reference theater that is pretty well treated. Most high-end speakers don't do well there. The M2s just don't care about that space. They produce superb sound regardless.

I hear a lot of expensive speakers at shows and such and while many sound different, this is the first time I hear a speaker advance what I consider to be great. It is not overdoing anything. Just bringing more performance in dynamic range while not losing excellent resolution.

Everytime I look at them I want to spend the money and upgrade my own theater's front Revel channels to them. I am of course full of bias here . But I hope see through that and realize that this is a speaker that has impressed me so much that I can't stop respecting what it does.

I should share that my anecdotal experience from the audio society was that a number of people didn't like it. Gary played a track and said the sax (?) didn't sound like a sax for example. It sounded like a sax to me . Others hated the notion of the horns anything. So perhaps I look for something else in speakers than others.

It is massive amount of work for us to retrofit the M2s into our theater but if all goes well, we will be doing it. It takes 6 people just to move the acoustically transparent speaker away from the front wall! And we have to take chainsaw to the structure in the front to cut an opening for them! But my designer and I are so blown over the performance of the speaker that we will likely perform the major surgery to make it happen. While we are at it, we will be using large array speakers for sides and surrounds (the sound drop off is less than traditional speakers making them ideal for side and surrounds).

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I'm waiting for the learnings from the development of the M2s to trickle down to their small active monitors. JBL already does this exceedingly well, but the M2 was the kind of no-holes-barred flagship project that eventually pull the entire line forward with it. Or so I hope...

Tim

 

[joeinid]

Hi Tim,

I think it's already starting ....

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=469&MId=5

http://www.jblpro.com/products/recording&broadcast/3Series/index.html

 

[bromide]

My favorite combo and what we have in the shop is to have the very efficient crown amps drive the larger woofers and use high-end amp for the horn.

Are you using amps with different power ratings for the top vs bottom?

Do you know if the JBL Pro Cinema subs have presets in / for the SDEC? The S1S-EX seems a little low on SPL as it approaches 20hz. The 5628 looks much more capable for about the same price. How important is it to ARCOS / SFM to use 4 subs, 1 in each corner?

I read a while back that Harman planned to integrate ARCOS into their SSPs. Did that fizzle? It would be nice to avoid the extra AD/DA with the SDEC.

Is there a difference in SQ between the Class I amps used in the Pro package vs the Class D used for consumer? Crown claims Class I is as good as Class A. They make no such claim for their Class D amps. The latter seem more about efficiency, manageability, etc. Nothing to say SQ was a design priority, unless that's supposed to be a given.

 

[amirm]

Are you using amps with different power ratings for the top vs bottom?

Yes.

Do you know if the JBL Pro Cinema subs have presets in / for the SDEC? The S1S-EX seems a little low on SPL as it approaches 20hz. The 5628 looks much more capable for about the same price. How important is it to ARCOS / SFM to use 4 subs, 1 in each corner?

4 subs as opposed to one? If so, the answer is very important.

I read a while back that Harman planned to integrate ARCOS into their SSPs. Did that fizzle? It would be nice to avoid the extra AD/DA with the SDEC.

Yes unfortunately it did. It was the Lexicon processor that was supposed to have it in there but that project was cancelled. Real bummer.

Is there a difference in SQ between the Class I amps used in the Pro package vs the Class D used for consumer? Crown claims Class I is as good as Class A. They make no such claim for their Class D amps. The latter seem more about efficiency, manageability, etc. Nothing to say SQ was a design priority, unless that's supposed to be a given.

Class I is just a better class D (runs at higher equiv. frequency). I had not seen them claim performance the same as class A. They have far better power handle for bass.

In general I like to see an audiophile class amp for the high frequencies than commercial crown for music applications. For movies, it may not matter.

 

[dallasjustice]

Does the DSP account for the different amp gains when they aren't the same on woofer and horn? I noticed the crossover is 1st order, so getting the levels right is pretty important.

Yes.


4 subs as opposed to one? If so, the answer is very important.


Yes unfortunately it did. It was the Lexicon processor that was supposed to have it in there but that project was cancelled. Real bummer.


Class I is just a better class D (runs at higher equiv. frequency). I had not seen them claim performance the same as class A. They have far better power handle for bass.

In general I like to see an audiophile class amp for the high frequencies than commercial crown for music applications. For movies, it may not matter.

 

[dallasjustice]

Amir,
What is the port tuning frequency? I ask because my room gets smoother bass with a pair of mono frontwall subs, one quarter width, than just running a pair of full range speakers. I wouldn't want to try to integrate subs below the tuning frequency without crossing them over well above the tuning frequency.(port phase reversal)

Do folks ever use their own 3rd party DSP off the server to handle room correction and crossovers for subs with the m2? It seems possible.
Michael.

Michael.

 

[amirm]

Does the DSP account for the different amp gains when they aren't the same on woofer and horn? I noticed the crossover is 1st order, so getting the levels right is pretty important.

Of course. The system is fully programmed and calibrated so it accounts for everything in the DSP. The crossovers are in the DSP. Where did you read that it is first order?

 

[amirm]

Amir,
What is the port tuning frequency? I ask because my room gets smoother bass with a pair of mono frontwall subs, one quarter width, than just running a pair of full range speakers. I wouldn't want to try to integrate subs below the tuning frequency without crossing them over well above the tuning frequency.(port phase reversal)

I am sorry I don't know the port tuning frequency.

Do folks ever use their own 3rd party DSP off the server to handle room correction and crossovers for subs with the m2? It seems possible.

In the JBL Synthesis version, the M2 fully includes the SDEC/ARCOS room correction software and hardware. The DSP handles both the crossover for the M2 and optimization for the room.

The PRO version I believe uses the DSPs in the Crown amps so I don't think you get the room EQ. One can of course be added easily.

 

[bromide]

4 subs as opposed to one? If so, the answer is very important.

I have constraints on the number of subs and/or locations. Behind the screen wall works. I could easily put 2 in the front corners. But there are physical & WAF challenges with JBL subs in the rear corners. Synthesis said I had to use 4 subs and they had to go in the corners. No exceptions. If that's rooted in technical requirements for ARCOS / SFM to work properly, then I won't fight it. But if it's just an ideal, then maybe it's worth pursuing an exception.

It all leads back to the choice between going the Pro route vs Consumer to get the M2's (and also who I buy from, which is why I can't trust either dealer 100%). If SFM isn't going to work with my compromised sub setup, then the SDEC is of less value, and maybe I would be better off going the Pro route. My understanding is the iTech's in the Pro bundle integrate a BSS into them, which is the same core DSP as the SDEC but lacks the ARCOS / SFM software macros layered on top. Similar for the Crown DCI network amps, which I would use to power the surrounds. So I could still do room correction, but it's all manual at that point.

Here is the link where Crown describes Class I and claims the same fidelity as Class A: https://youtu.be/racw9PICT7Q?list=PLXIuxHJuSDFz_EYGrfYrfTMh_DQOsK5eX

 

[amirm]

I have constraints on the number of subs and/or locations. Behind the screen wall works. I could easily put 2 in the front corners. But there are physical & WAF challenges with JBL subs in the rear corners. Synthesis said I had to use 4 subs and they had to go in the corners. No exceptions. If that's rooted in technical requirements for ARCOS / SFM to work properly, then I won't fight it. But if it's just an ideal, then maybe it's worth pursuing an exception.

There is no rule like this at all. Who is saying this, the dealer? Yes, the four subs in the corner is recommended due to extra power you get out of them. But it is huge news to me that there is some requirement for this from Harman point of view. To wit, our theater has four subs at work and they are all in center walls. My own system has two subs in two center walls.

Two subs in the front wall would kill the horizontal modes between them which is good. They won't do anything for modes lengthwise but with good seating arrangement and SFM/ARCOS it should have good sound.

It all leads back to the choice between going the Pro route vs Consumer to get the M2's (and also who I buy from, which is why I can't trust either dealer 100%). If SFM isn't going to work with my compromised sub setup, then the SDEC is of less value, and maybe I would be better off going the Pro route.

There are a ton of other benefits to SDEC solution. Read this article I wrote on that: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/Computer Optimization of Acoustics.html. If money is not an issue, for sure I would get the consumer one.

My understanding is the iTech's in the Pro bundle integrate a BSS into them, which is the same core DSP as the SDEC but lacks the ARCOS / SFM software macros layered on top. Similar for the Crown DCI network amps, which I would use to power the surrounds. So I could still do room correction, but it's all manual at that point.

That's correct. And personally, I could have opted for either but got the SDEC to be able to run ARCOS/SFM. Hand optimization is possible without them but a ton of work and expertise for multi-channel at least.