I believe that I hear in this video what you are describing. If the videos which people post of their systems playing music sounded like this I would withdraw a lot of my video objections!
Introducing My System
- Thread starter Thundersnow
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I believe that I hear in this video what you are describing. If the videos which people post of their systems playing music sounded like this I would withdraw a lot of my video objections!
I am really glad the video is able to convey some of the atmosphere I’ve experienced! The lingering sentiment and the strongest impression is the overall sense of calm to the music due to the superb acoustics of the church.
Welcome to Paris
Don't worry, I don't think any of us are, or will ever be, at that level of "calm" that one can experience with live music in such a setting!
-- devoid of any aggression or harshness
-- the tones perfectly subtle, almost gentle
-- convey the sense of calm and tonal richness
This is what I personally want an audio system to sound like. This is what I personally aim for in my own system. But these descriptions are not what come to my mind when I listen to most systems in most dealer audio salons.
Kind of what posters seem to have while chatting on WBF
so you expect systems to sound as good as good live acoustics? They shouldn’t, and the fact that the live show sounds better than the systems shows you understand videos. It is just that instead of discounting accordingly, you want the end sound to sound great, which will happen only in good live acoustics..
This whole hobby for me is the pursuit of the above as the ideal. Realizing it’s impossible to get there, but simply to get as close enough as possible.
IMO, all of your goals should be recording dependent and not originating from the system.
Having just come back from my wonderful time in Paris with the family (thank you, Paris, for existing in this world!), and still being under the impression of the classical concerts I listened to, I fired up my system in the 5 minutes it took me to get settled. Couldn’t wait to compare what I heard with what I hear in my listening room:
So a couple of notes first:
- I listened to a completely unplugged, classical ensemble in an amazing venue like ‘La Madeleine’. In other words there was absolutely NOTHING separating my ears from the very heart of the instruments that were playing, amplified only by the spectacular acoustics of the church.
- To that end, and having in mind that recordings do indeed play a huge role in the final reproduction through one’s stereo system, my intuitive first response was to play Chasing the Dragon recordings, as those, to my mind (ears), come the closest to what I was hearing live.
Here we have a couple of notes to make also — I was looking for that aforementioned calmness In the sound, so I had to look for recordings from venues similar to La Madeleine. The closest my ears could come to was Mozart By Candlelight — specifically Symphony no. 29 in A.
On another note, Vivaldi in London, sounded a lot more true to the sound than Vivaldi in Venice. Was it the venue, recording equipment, I don’t know. Just my off the bat impression.
- So how does my system fare when reproducing what I think are some of the best and most true to life recordings of classical music in special acoustic ambients?
— The good news is the harmonic richness of the tone is present and faithfully reproduced. It seems that having a tube system end-to-end is the best way to translate the live tone to what is on the recording.
— The dynamics and the separation of instruments are also up to par. Very happy with that.
—- Even while listening to live music I immediately deduced that the “rhythm section“ of the classical orchestra — the cellos, the double bass, etc. — have more oomph to them than I thought. Classical is no different to pop and rock in that sense, rhythm is the baseline, so I cannot imagine anything but a full range system being true to the real sound.
— In that sense, no matter what you may think yourself — or anyone tells you with regards to Marten Mingus Orchestra — the only, the ONLY way to get the best possible balance out of this speaker is to keep the bass knob at +0db. No reduction in bass. Add to that the first order crossover and the relatively high crossover point for the 8” bass drivers at 380hz and you’ll realize that the only proper voicing of this speaker for bass, mid bass and even mid range (with regards to 8” bass drivers) is to keep the bass knob at full tilt. Meaning 0db.
— Finally, is there something missing still? Sadly yes. The sound is slightly more bright and slightly leaner than what my ears heard at the venue. Do I blame the electronics? Not necessarily (although playing digital may have something to do with the sound here).
— Regardless, I would LOVE to have a way to apply -1db (that’s enough!) to the diamond drivers.
That’s it for now, folks, battery running out on the IPad!
So a couple of notes first:
- I listened to a completely unplugged, classical ensemble in an amazing venue like ‘La Madeleine’. In other words there was absolutely NOTHING separating my ears from the very heart of the instruments that were playing, amplified only by the spectacular acoustics of the church.
- To that end, and having in mind that recordings do indeed play a huge role in the final reproduction through one’s stereo system, my intuitive first response was to play Chasing the Dragon recordings, as those, to my mind (ears), come the closest to what I was hearing live.
Here we have a couple of notes to make also — I was looking for that aforementioned calmness In the sound, so I had to look for recordings from venues similar to La Madeleine. The closest my ears could come to was Mozart By Candlelight — specifically Symphony no. 29 in A.
On another note, Vivaldi in London, sounded a lot more true to the sound than Vivaldi in Venice. Was it the venue, recording equipment, I don’t know. Just my off the bat impression.
- So how does my system fare when reproducing what I think are some of the best and most true to life recordings of classical music in special acoustic ambients?
— The good news is the harmonic richness of the tone is present and faithfully reproduced. It seems that having a tube system end-to-end is the best way to translate the live tone to what is on the recording.
— The dynamics and the separation of instruments are also up to par. Very happy with that.
—- Even while listening to live music I immediately deduced that the “rhythm section“ of the classical orchestra — the cellos, the double bass, etc. — have more oomph to them than I thought. Classical is no different to pop and rock in that sense, rhythm is the baseline, so I cannot imagine anything but a full range system being true to the real sound.
— In that sense, no matter what you may think yourself — or anyone tells you with regards to Marten Mingus Orchestra — the only, the ONLY way to get the best possible balance out of this speaker is to keep the bass knob at +0db. No reduction in bass. Add to that the first order crossover and the relatively high crossover point for the 8” bass drivers at 380hz and you’ll realize that the only proper voicing of this speaker for bass, mid bass and even mid range (with regards to 8” bass drivers) is to keep the bass knob at full tilt. Meaning 0db.
— Finally, is there something missing still? Sadly yes. The sound is slightly more bright and slightly leaner than what my ears heard at the venue. Do I blame the electronics? Not necessarily (although playing digital may have something to do with the sound here).
— Regardless, I would LOVE to have a way to apply -1db (that’s enough!) to the diamond drivers.
That’s it for now, folks, battery running out on the IPad!
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Another quick note. Does this mean that I am somehow disappointed with my system? Heck no! But I do try to keep things in perspective, realizing that no system is perfect and that we owe it to the hobby of hi-fi and to the music to call things as they are and not get wrapped up in the ego of our own systems.
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Nice experience, thanks for the elaborate review.
In terms of the brightness of the diamond Accuton driver, i’ve had a similar feeling when auditioning the Parker Duo w/ Jorma cabling.
Which source and cables are you currently using? Possible for you to listen to the same Vivaldi in London recording via Roon streaming Qobuz and introduce a 1band -1db DSP correction to see if it’s solving the pb?
If i understood correctly, Ron had a similar issue and solved it with a single interconnect cable swap to a warmer sounding Cardas cable.
Cheers,
J.
Jerome hi, since I listen via Roon I can certainly test my theory of -1db low shelf from around 1k hz — just to see if I get closer to that balance. With regards to matching equipment, I’ve tried so many different cables and gear that I have lost count. Since no solution is ever perfect (and in that context one should read my above posts), at least for now I feel that OVERALL I am where I should be with the sound. One gain in tonal color can be a loss in certain other areas, so keeping the bigger picture in mind is important.
With that said, when mentioning the -1db correction I mostly had the traditional tone controls in mind — much like (or exactly like) Dan D’Agostino implemented with his Momentum HD preamp. I don’t feel that any one cable can have the same degree of impact to the tone as those can. Sadly, I see that D’Ags moved away from that concept with the Relentless pre, possibly succumbing to the pressure from the hi end community demanding the ultimate purity in the signal.
The next test will be to play my reel to reel master recordings (specifically Chasing the Dragon and Open Reel Records) as well as vinyl to see what sort of an impact the analogue source will have in conveying what I heard.
Indeed, any cable will alter the sound and it's always a compromise. It's just the Accuton diamond drivers have a reputation to be
I agree, cabling is always a trade off and they all alter the sound to some extent.
The Accuton diamond drivers have a reputation to be brutally honest and probably are the most resolving out there. Depending on the associated equipment it can be a bit too much.
I think your approach with the RtR and Vinyl as another reference is sensible and then decide to either correct it in the digital domain or put an analog equalizer in or leave as is. I feel the “purity-of-signal” argument is a bit overrated but indeed, it is definitely another trade off also in terms of another box with cables etc.
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If I end up experimenting with any sort of tone controls I’ll likely work with Dejan from NAT on this as I have a lot of confidence in his design approach.
But for now no such plans. I will play with cables more of course, esp on digital. I am to pick up a Shunyata Sigma NR for the Horizon so we’ll see where that inches the sound.
That said, in continuing this exercise and while tue impressions are fresh, it’s testing the analogue sources next!
But for now no such plans. I will play with cables more of course, esp on digital. I am to pick up a Shunyata Sigma NR for the Horizon so we’ll see where that inches the sound.
That said, in continuing this exercise and while tue impressions are fresh, it’s testing the analogue sources next!
So a very quick update on the exercise. Instead of looking at cables, speakers and electronics I took a long hard look into room acoustics. A few weeks back I removed an absorber at the primary reflection point of the right speaker. I wanted more air in my sound and I got it — but you’ve guessed it — at the expense of introducing harmful reflections.
So, in looking for that calmness and serenity of sound, I returned the absorber at the right speaker’s primary reflection point, and to even out the lack in air, I moved the carpet some 30cm back from the speakers, exposing the hardwood floor — the guiding principle being that the human brain takes most of its audio cues from floor reflections, which are actually more beneficial to the sound than side wall or ceiling reflections.
Bingo! I got more of what I was looking for in the sound. The classical music sounded more truthful to what I have heard. Nice!
So, in looking for that calmness and serenity of sound, I returned the absorber at the right speaker’s primary reflection point, and to even out the lack in air, I moved the carpet some 30cm back from the speakers, exposing the hardwood floor — the guiding principle being that the human brain takes most of its audio cues from floor reflections, which are actually more beneficial to the sound than side wall or ceiling reflections.
Bingo! I got more of what I was looking for in the sound. The classical music sounded more truthful to what I have heard. Nice!
Zdravo, Uroše
I'm glad you could solve the minor problem you had with just playing with absorption and diffusion of 1st and 2nd order reflections in your room. I can see that you're very happy with Shunyata cables, as well. If may recommend it and if you have access to it, you could try Kubala-Sosna from Emotion and up in their line.
Diamond, beryllium, and most "alloy" tweeters do tend to be a bit forward, or as you said "brutally honest" Therefore, cables capable of taming that but not being rolled off would be worth trying.
Best,
Marko
I'm glad you could solve the minor problem you had with just playing with absorption and diffusion of 1st and 2nd order reflections in your room. I can see that you're very happy with Shunyata cables, as well. If may recommend it and if you have access to it, you could try Kubala-Sosna from Emotion and up in their line.
Diamond, beryllium, and most "alloy" tweeters do tend to be a bit forward, or as you said "brutally honest" Therefore, cables capable of taming that but not being rolled off would be worth trying.
Best,
Marko
Thanks, Marko!Zdravo, Uroše
I'm glad you could solve the minor problem you had with just playing with absorption and diffusion of 1st and 2nd order reflections in your room. I can see that you're very happy with Shunyata cables, as well. If may recommend it and if you have access to it, you could try Kubala-Sosna from Emotion and up in their line.
Diamond, beryllium, and most "alloy" tweeters do tend to be a bit forward, or as you said "brutally honest" Therefore, cables capable of taming that but not being rolled off would be worth trying.
Best,
Marko
Jorma is a very good match in that sense with Marten, both in terms of tone and for the obvious reasons that the speakers are wired with it. In the grand scheme of things, room acoustics do play a much bigger role on the sound and I already have room treatment that I can play around with so a win-win. Kubala Sosna is what Estellon uses for their higher end speakers (also Accuton based), so it is indeed a good match in theory with Marten as well!
Hi Uros,
I agree with you 100%, especially regarding room acoustic and the role the listening room plays in the overall sound of a system and yes, going with the same model of speakers/interconnect cables as your speaker's internal wiring is the way to go. There are quite a few examples of speaker manufacturers going with certain cable manufacturers like you mentioned Estelon and Kubala or Wilson Audio and Transparent etc..
Anyway, I'm really enjoying reading your posts, and your elaborate review, and again, thank you for sharing your experience with us.
Best,
Marko
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