I just purchased
Shunyata Everest 8000 + Shunyata Omega XC power cable.
Shunyata Everest 8000 + Shunyata Omega XC power cable.
Introducing My System
- Thread starter Thundersnow
- Start date
There should be an organization called "audiophiles anonymous" to treat OCD.
I hope you are having fun and enjoying the music. Best
I hope you are having fun and enjoying the music. Best
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So this is Black Pumas at Eventim Apollo, had the pleasure of attending that concert several days ago:
And these are Black Pumas at my place I have to say, the singer’s voice and the tone I heard at the concert is pretty much how I hear it at my place — so ”Colors” me happy
And these are Black Pumas at my place
I have to say, the singer’s voice and the tone I heard at the concert is pretty much how I hear it at my place — so ”Colors” me happy
So, ladies and gents, new spaces new challenges! This is not the final setup, as the NAT Magma Evos are still very much in play, but as summer is creeping around the corner, I’ve decided to play it cool with my Soulution 710. To add the flavor of the tubes, we still have the NAT preamp, but on the DAC position we have a newcomer — Weiss Helios. BTW, I have Trafomatic’s Lara preamp coming in the near future, so expect a full report on the shootout between the Serbian hifi manufacturers!
“So why oh why is Horizon not in the setup?!”
I have one word for you — bass modes. That’s two words.
Anyway, so after moving in to my new space I’ve had the displeasure of coming across some seriously powerful room modes at around 35hz, which were literally driving me insane. The problem was MOSTLY alleviated with the powerful and amazing PSI AVAA C20 bass traps and later almost completely resolved with the new AVAA C214. For now I have two stacked in the most problematic corner while awaiting one more to arrive which will be placed at the opposite side of the room where there is still some (but not nearly as powerful) bass build up as I had in the corner I’ve already treated. Weiss Helios comes into play with its powerful DSP plugin which really does a wonderful job, and having also an integrated streamer support I have one less box to worry about in the system. Finally, I had to set the bass knobs at the back of the speakers to what is essentially the lowest -3db position, finally getting some sort of a balance in the sound. FYI, the room in terms of the cubic area is about three times the size of the previous room, but in the previous room I had a long hallway leading into the other side of the apartment which served as the most amazing bass trap ever. No such luck here.
Phew… stay tuned for more. Some pics to illustrate:
“So why oh why is Horizon not in the setup?!”
I have one word for you — bass modes. That’s two words.
Anyway, so after moving in to my new space I’ve had the displeasure of coming across some seriously powerful room modes at around 35hz, which were literally driving me insane. The problem was MOSTLY alleviated with the powerful and amazing PSI AVAA C20 bass traps and later almost completely resolved with the new AVAA C214. For now I have two stacked in the most problematic corner while awaiting one more to arrive which will be placed at the opposite side of the room where there is still some (but not nearly as powerful) bass build up as I had in the corner I’ve already treated. Weiss Helios comes into play with its powerful DSP plugin which really does a wonderful job, and having also an integrated streamer support I have one less box to worry about in the system. Finally, I had to set the bass knobs at the back of the speakers to what is essentially the lowest -3db position, finally getting some sort of a balance in the sound. FYI, the room in terms of the cubic area is about three times the size of the previous room, but in the previous room I had a long hallway leading into the other side of the apartment which served as the most amazing bass trap ever. No such luck here.
Phew… stay tuned for more. Some pics to illustrate:
Attachments
Nope, didn’t have a chance to try Transmitter. Dejan has been raving on recently to me about the new version of his hybrid amps — forget the name, I get lost in the myriad of different names — he tells me they are superb so I’ll likely try these here as I believe he told me they “only” dissipate some 320w. Forgive me I could be getting some of these details wrong but I’ll write more about it as I get em here.
Ah yes, he calls them NuFET I think. Kind of like the Aries Cerat concept and you have a single stage amp.
Hi Thundersnow,
Sorry about the room mode. (Welcome to my listening room.)
Did you find there to be a significant difference in bass absorption/bass frequency reverberation time reduction between the PSI AVAA C20 and the new AVAA C214. (I thought the new C214 was mainly an improvement in convenience with a remote control, but the same underlying fundamental mechanism?)
Sorry about the room mode. (Welcome to my listening room.)
Did you find there to be a significant difference in bass absorption/bass frequency reverberation time reduction between the PSI AVAA C20 and the new AVAA C214. (I thought the new C214 was mainly an improvement in convenience with a remote control, but the same underlying fundamental mechanism?)
Surprisingly, I found that, at least in my room, AVAA C214 simply did a better job. I feel that C20 was a little bit more unstable and prone to mic feedback than the digital model, which allowed me to crank up C214 to +6db. Plus, the convenience of being able to control all traps with an app does help when doing measurements and comparing the effects. So, overall, I think that C214 is a true step up. So much so that I had a relative bargain on the C20s, and I still picked the C214s at a “normal” discounted price. This is not to say that C20 isn’t a wonderful product, by all means it is, I just think C214 is a clear step up.
With regards to room modes, it’s such a pain and an uphill battle. I really am super thankful for a product like these PSI traps. I truly have no idea how I’d tackle that much sound pressure and energy. It’s still not ideal, but it’s also fleetingly disheartening (would be the term I guess) to invest so much into gear when room geometry looms over every path you decide to take with the equipment.
I have gotten it to a better state, but knowing what the reference should be (and especially with certain songs I know oh so well), it’s an uphill battle as I said. For the life of me, I can’t get onboard with the “thinning of the sound” — which is how I hear DSP being turned on and off so I am doing my absolute best to try and get things to about 80% of where they should be without resorting to DSP.
It’s also somewhat of a revelation to me just how much critical room modes can make or break one’s listening experience — I mean sure in theory we all get it, but with and without traps reveals just how extreme the masking is of the mids in particular and to a certain extent highs as well.
Thank you for this detailed reply!
How many AVAAs are you using in total now?
Approximately where are they arrayed in your room?
How many AVAAs are you using in total now?
Approximately where are they arrayed in your room?
Using two now stacked in the most problematic corner. This corner is your classic 90 degree corner with all major points of the room coming together. The stack is very important here with bass being omnidirectional it’s important to not only consider the bottom corner but of course do something to the bass build up where the walls meet the ceiling. The left speaker is positioned against a couple of slanted walls (where the fireplace is) so there are no major bass build ups here.
As I was doing measurements in the room I noticed that the corner diagonal to the most problematic corner also had tremendous bass build up. Obviously we are dealing with large wavelengths and a LOT of energy in the 25-50hz range. I still had the C20s at hand so I used it on that corner at the far end of the room. And when I say far end, it’s a good 12m to the back of this space. Again given the wavelengths no big surprises there.
Sure enough, the C20 in the diagonal corner at the back did its job tremendously, the bass build up was eradicated, however, it had little to no impact for the listening position?! In fact, it made matters slightly worse. I could only surmise that due to the length of the room and the room modes in question, and the listening position being roughly at the first half of the room, the reflected sound from the back was doing certain beneficial things for the listening spot — again we have to bear in mind physics here, the energy and the wavelengths involved.
Finally, I placed the third C20 at one of the wider corners (where the slanted wall is), loosely being in the vicinity of the left speaker. This had a positive effect, especially localized in the listening area of the room — an incremental effect and not as profound as the stack in the most problematic right corner. But with all traps being turned all the way up this finally tamed the bass mode well enough that I could enjoy music again.
So the final setup in the room (and backed up by numerous measurements) will be a stack in the right corner of two C214s and one C214 at the slanted wall near the fireplace.
As I was doing measurements in the room I noticed that the corner diagonal to the most problematic corner also had tremendous bass build up. Obviously we are dealing with large wavelengths and a LOT of energy in the 25-50hz range. I still had the C20s at hand so I used it on that corner at the far end of the room. And when I say far end, it’s a good 12m to the back of this space. Again given the wavelengths no big surprises there.
Sure enough, the C20 in the diagonal corner at the back did its job tremendously, the bass build up was eradicated, however, it had little to no impact for the listening position?! In fact, it made matters slightly worse. I could only surmise that due to the length of the room and the room modes in question, and the listening position being roughly at the first half of the room, the reflected sound from the back was doing certain beneficial things for the listening spot — again we have to bear in mind physics here, the energy and the wavelengths involved.
Finally, I placed the third C20 at one of the wider corners (where the slanted wall is), loosely being in the vicinity of the left speaker. This had a positive effect, especially localized in the listening area of the room — an incremental effect and not as profound as the stack in the most problematic right corner. But with all traps being turned all the way up this finally tamed the bass mode well enough that I could enjoy music again.
So the final setup in the room (and backed up by numerous measurements) will be a stack in the right corner of two C214s and one C214 at the slanted wall near the fireplace.
A good buddy of mine is plagued by the same room modes as I — the 35hz of doom as I like to call it — his listening room is much smaller but it’s ratios and room geometry here at play. I took over the two C20s to his place and what I’ve learned is that the impact of these bass traps is incredibly amplified and I guess inversely proportional to the size of the room.
When doing our experiments and stacking two C20s in just one corner, we could both hear a clear imbalance in the sound. My conclusion is there are two reasons for this — the room is much smaller and it’s relatively symmetrical (not exactly but close to cube shaped). We ended up setting the C20s behind each of the speakers (one behind each speaker) and this did an absolutely stellar job for the room. The two C20s evened out the bass response and also seriously reduced the 35hz peak. Both of us were amazed by the results. The two traps in his space had an almost profound effect.
I guess what I am trying to say is that while this product undoubtably works (no question and measuring mics prove it — don’t trust my ears for bass enough), each room geometry and size is very unique so it takes a methodical and an educated approach to deal with the bass modes in each individual listening space.
When doing our experiments and stacking two C20s in just one corner, we could both hear a clear imbalance in the sound. My conclusion is there are two reasons for this — the room is much smaller and it’s relatively symmetrical (not exactly but close to cube shaped). We ended up setting the C20s behind each of the speakers (one behind each speaker) and this did an absolutely stellar job for the room. The two C20s evened out the bass response and also seriously reduced the 35hz peak. Both of us were amazed by the results. The two traps in his space had an almost profound effect.
I guess what I am trying to say is that while this product undoubtably works (no question and measuring mics prove it — don’t trust my ears for bass enough), each room geometry and size is very unique so it takes a methodical and an educated approach to deal with the bass modes in each individual listening space.
Another practical piece of advice when placing the traps is to preferably do it against solid (concrete) walls. The more solid the wall, the worse enemy it becomes to having a balanced sound in the room. This in part has to do with sound pressure, but also the velocity of sound. And with that, I bid everyone a good night. As with so many things in life the absolute foundation of any good sound starts with achieving the basic balance between the lows, mids and highs. This is the cornerstone — the further away we move from this primary principle the more subjective preferences come into play and for that you need to connect with what is the emotion of music to you and I can’t help anyone but myself there
Beautiful room, enjoy!
I use a pair of PSI AVAA C20's stacked in the rear right corner of our room in a similar fashion as your AVAA C214's. Bass extension, drive and transient punch is improved dramatically. And if I occasionally wonder what they are doing I simply switch one off and I'm reminded how exceptional the PSI AVAA products are. Indispensable in my room.
So for those of you following “the bass saga at the new place” which is the title of my latest chapter of the journey, some iterative steps were made that got me to a spot which I’m fairly comfortable with.
Instead of having just two C214 traps, the bass trap team has been bolstered with two C20 AVAA’s, all of which I now own and with the fifth C214 on its way (I wish I was kidding). Anyway, the physics of everything are undeniable and speakers as powerful as mine with the room volume being what it is, require (surprise, surprise) a number of traps which can meaningfully in terms efficiency counter the energy emanating from the Marten Mingus Orchestra speakers.
The final setup goes in line with the theory (which again surprise) proves right in practice — two traps are hidden behind the curtain where the concrete floating shelf is (at the wide corner behind the left speaker), while one is placed in the right hand corner looking at the listening opposition and at the opposite diagonal corner behind the listening position. In essence treating points where two perpendicular walls meet either the floor or the ceiling are the prime areas where one wants to treat bass issues. The fifth trap for now will be stacked on the one in the right corner.
HOWEVER, there is one big caveat. I am using DSP (a PEQ at 36,7hz, -6db, Q7.5) on the RIGHT SPEAKER ONLY. And that’s the key. It turns out (again in line with the theory) that the slanted walls with wide angles and the left speaker not being placed in a traditional corner produces a fantastic bass response — very even and manageable. The left speaker requires NO DSP, While the right speaker is the culprit for the incredibly annoying 36hz rather wide (in terms of freq range) and powerful bass mode.
Treating the right speaker with the above PEQ alone allowed for the sound to remain as organic as I’ve heard it with DSP while treating the MAIN bass issue in the room. The traps are doing the job for the frequencies above the main issue quite fine.
Bearing in mind the above, it’s likely that mounting one trap in the right corner on the ceiling would do wonders for the main bass mode and would allow for comfortable listening even without DSP. I will try this at some point, but for aesthetic reasons, I have to wait for the white C214 to become available and also to do some light reconstruction to make sure I have an electrical outlet available near the trap.
Anyway, submitting three picture. Of the left and right speakers (no DSP) and then a sum of channels with DSP correction applied. Hope this helps another unfortunate bass missionary dragging his acoustic cross up the waterfall (Mission style):
From left to right, the first pic is the left channel no DSP, then the right channel no DSP, and then sum with DSP applied. And with all the traps in place in all pics.
Instead of having just two C214 traps, the bass trap team has been bolstered with two C20 AVAA’s, all of which I now own and with the fifth C214 on its way (I wish I was kidding). Anyway, the physics of everything are undeniable and speakers as powerful as mine with the room volume being what it is, require (surprise, surprise) a number of traps which can meaningfully in terms efficiency counter the energy emanating from the Marten Mingus Orchestra speakers.
The final setup goes in line with the theory (which again surprise) proves right in practice — two traps are hidden behind the curtain where the concrete floating shelf is (at the wide corner behind the left speaker), while one is placed in the right hand corner looking at the listening opposition and at the opposite diagonal corner behind the listening position. In essence treating points where two perpendicular walls meet either the floor or the ceiling are the prime areas where one wants to treat bass issues. The fifth trap for now will be stacked on the one in the right corner.
HOWEVER, there is one big caveat. I am using DSP (a PEQ at 36,7hz, -6db, Q7.5) on the RIGHT SPEAKER ONLY. And that’s the key. It turns out (again in line with the theory) that the slanted walls with wide angles and the left speaker not being placed in a traditional corner produces a fantastic bass response — very even and manageable. The left speaker requires NO DSP, While the right speaker is the culprit for the incredibly annoying 36hz rather wide (in terms of freq range) and powerful bass mode.
Treating the right speaker with the above PEQ alone allowed for the sound to remain as organic as I’ve heard it with DSP while treating the MAIN bass issue in the room. The traps are doing the job for the frequencies above the main issue quite fine.
Bearing in mind the above, it’s likely that mounting one trap in the right corner on the ceiling would do wonders for the main bass mode and would allow for comfortable listening even without DSP. I will try this at some point, but for aesthetic reasons, I have to wait for the white C214 to become available and also to do some light reconstruction to make sure I have an electrical outlet available near the trap.
Anyway, submitting three picture. Of the left and right speakers (no DSP) and then a sum of channels with DSP correction applied. Hope this helps another unfortunate bass missionary dragging his acoustic cross up the waterfall (Mission style):
From left to right, the first pic is the left channel no DSP, then the right channel no DSP, and then sum with DSP applied. And with all the traps in place in all pics.
Attachments
I wanted a one-box streamer-DSP-DAC solution — primarily to combat the bass issues in the room and to have fewer boxes.
So, as I have hinted in the week or so, the errr… brand new NAT Symbiosis New amps have landed at la case del Thundersnow.
In short, and having listened to the amps for the last several hours, I can honestly say I have never a heard a more lifelike reproduction of certain very well recorded tracks I’m very familiar with.
The sound is a touch less velvety than with the Magma Evo’s, but with one huge caveat that these amps just keep getting more “there” in that sense as they warm up. They were cold off the block so to speak.
But the realism and the dynamics and especially the body of the sound are unlike anything I’ve heard in my recent memory. The control? Get the heck out of here.
It pains me to say that Soulution 710 in comparison sounds like a … good attempt at an amp? And that’s being very generous.
Dejan has explained the details to me, but let’s just say that the purity of signal on these things is just about as good as it gets. And you can hear it.
Videos don’t do it justice, but here’s one nonetheless:
In short, and having listened to the amps for the last several hours, I can honestly say I have never a heard a more lifelike reproduction of certain very well recorded tracks I’m very familiar with.
The sound is a touch less velvety than with the Magma Evo’s, but with one huge caveat that these amps just keep getting more “there” in that sense as they warm up. They were cold off the block so to speak.
But the realism and the dynamics and especially the body of the sound are unlike anything I’ve heard in my recent memory. The control? Get the heck out of here.
It pains me to say that Soulution 710 in comparison sounds like a … good attempt at an amp? And that’s being very generous.
Dejan has explained the details to me, but let’s just say that the purity of signal on these things is just about as good as it gets. And you can hear it.
Videos don’t do it justice, but here’s one nonetheless:
