Introspection and hyperbole control

[PeterA]

To be honest, Peter, I don't know. But what i do know, now that you've told me, is that these two speakers have different mid and high frequency drivers and different crossovers, and it seems very unlikely that they would have identical measurements, even on axis in an anechoic chamber. Do you know any details about the measurements that were made?

Tim

No, I don't know any details about the measurements. I was just responding to your comment that there are more speaker measurements than frequency response. I'm sure there are, and I was hoping that you could explain what they are. All that I've read is that the designer Alon Wolf, said that the frequency responses between the two speakers are identical and the reviewer, Robert Harley, wrote that the measurements are nearly the same. I am almost finished reading the review and there are no comments about the measurements so far.

We are therefore left to read the poetic prose, often full of hyperbole, which is the only reason I am discussing this subject, which was introduced by microstrip, in this thread about introspection and hyperbole. Before being able to listen to the speaker, without any measurements to see, we are left with subjective reviews as the only source of information along with published specifications.

Absent any discussion about what measurements are conducted by speaker manufacturers, we are left with opinion and speculation and the need to listen to the speakers to hear the differences, which is not always easy to do under the same conditions.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

No, I don't know any details about the measurements. I was just responding to your comment that there are more speaker measurements than frequency response. I'm sure there are, and I was hoping that you could explain what they are. All that I've read is that the designer Alon Wolf, said that the frequency responses between the two speakers are identical and the reviewer, Robert Harley, wrote that the measurements are nearly the same. I am almost finished reading the review and there are no comments about the measurements so far.

We are therefore left to read the poetic prose, often full of hyperbole, which is the only reason I am discussing this subject, which was introduced by microstrip, in this thread about introspection and hyperbole. Before being able to listen to the speaker, without any measurements to see, we are left with subjective reviews as the only source of information along with published specifications.

Absent any discussion about what measurements are conducted by speaker manufacturers, we are left with opinion and speculation and the need to listen to the speakers to hear the differences, which is not always easy to do under the same conditions.

As far as i know, the specs most speaker manufacturers list are a measurement of the speaker on-axis, from a meter or so away, in an anechoic environment. That says nothing about how coherent the drivers will be at the listening position, how the speakers will image stereo, what kind of FR they will produce when the direct sound is mixed with the first reflections, how they move air, project into a room and and deliver dynamic impact to the listener, and, I'm sure, other things I don't understand. In other words, it says little about how they will sound in a room, from a normal listening position. And that means that two speakers could "measure" very much the same and sound very different. I suspect that most of these things affect FR, but probably not so much from 1 meter at 1dB. So when someone says two speakers "measure" the same but sound different, that doesn't necessarily mean that we can't measure the audible differences between two speakers, it may only mean that we haven't been shown measurements that do so. How can we measure these things? There are people here who can answer this much better than I. Let's hope they weigh in.

And, by the way, I think we always have to listen to speakers, in the listening space, from the listening position, to know if we like them. With a little research and understanding, I think you can pick two amplifiers that will make the same speakers sound virtually identical, without auditioning them. Speakers, not so much. MHO, YMMV.

Tim

 

[Ron Resnick]

INTROSPECTION AND HYPERBOLE CONTROL REPORT

On September 24, 2015, Peter Breuninger, Founder of AVShowrooms, posted on AVShowroomsforums his Kronos Ltd. Edition Turntable Review. The written introduction to the video begins: “Here is the most profound turntable available today . . .”

During the course of the lengthy video Peter, very appropriately, describes his prior experience with high-end turntables. He states the two other turntables with which he has had the most experience and the greatest familiarity are the Walker and TechDAS Air Force One: “I’ve heard the TechDas Air Force One at least 10 times. I’ve heard the Kronos in different systems at least ten times and the Walker in four systems.”

If Peter had merely compared and contrasted the Kronos to these two other turntables and left it at that, then I would have no issue. The problem is that instead of reporting simply that he believes the Kronos is better than the Walker and the TechDAS he extrapolates from what he believes and concludes that the Kronos is the best turntable available today:

“But I honestly believe the Kronos has no sonic peer.”

“I think the Kronos turntable is currently the state of the art sonically turntable available today.” (emphasis added)

“I don’t believe this turntable currently has a peer in the marketplace.” (emphasis added)

“These two components [the UHA Phase 12 reel-to-reel deck and the Kronos] are the two finest source components, in my opinion, available today.” (emphasis added)

“These turntables are the finest sonic turntables available in the market today in my opinion.” (emphasis added)

Later in the review Peter says something intellectually honest: “To me [the Kronos] delivers the most clean, clear, realistic music that I’ve heard yet in my listening room from a turntable component.” (emphasis added)

Now that could be a true statement! It is fair to say something is the best you have heard in your listening room. That narrows the context to what you have actually heard and that you have heard it in your own listening room. One’s view that something is the best one has actually heard in one’s own listening room is no basis for then extrapolating and concluding that it is the best component in the world today (thus judging it against components one has not even heard and declaring it the winner).

In addition, Peter’s video review seemed to me to be much more like an infomercial than an intellectually honest, introspective review:

“Now we’re talking a turntable that will turn your records into reel-to-reel tapes. It will do that.”

“Because if you don't own the Kronos and you own a competing turntable you’re leaving some life behind.”

“[The Kronos turntables] will deliver the music like you’ve never heard it before.”

“You can buy the turntable on my recommendation and you will not be disappointed.”

The Kronos may be the best turntable in the world today. But since I have not lined up and compared the Kronos in a controlled way to the other top-of-the-line turntables from the other major turntable manufacturers in the world, I have no idea. Since Peter has not lined up and compared the Kronos in a controlled way to the other top-of-the-line turntables from the other major turntable manufacturers in the world (except for two), Peter has no idea either. The list of top turntable competitors would have to include, in addition to the Walker and the Air Force One, among others, the Clearaudio Statement, the Wave Kinetics, the top-of-the-line VPI, the Grand Prix Monaco, the top-of-the-line Transrotor, the Basis Audio Work of Art and the Vertere RG-1.

If Peter had limited his conclusion to the two other turntables with which he is very familiar then his review would have been intellectually honest. But because Peter goes on to state repeatedly that the Kronos is the best turntable available in the world today, even though he has not evaluated many of the other top turntables in the world today, he is the subject of this Introspection and Hyperbole Control Report.

 

[bonzo75]

Nicely written, Ron

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Yes, and you can always completely trust subjective reviews comparing equipment now in system with gear heard some time ago through a different system, even in a different room. That makes it quite easy to compare and unequivocally declare one component clearly better than another. We, our ears and our recall of comparative sounds, once heard, are constant, indelible and perfect beyond question over time, as is our ability to tune out the contribution of other components and room acoustics. Yeah, right.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Kedar!

 

[BruceD]

Nicely written, Ron

+1
--On the occasions I've heard the Kronos--it was Ok but no cigar

BruceD

 

[PeterA]

Ron, you beat me to it. I was considering posting the video on this very thread about hyperbole control and introspection. Of course, the big issue for me was that he did not mention any details about if he heard the other turntables with the same arm and cartridge combination. How could he possibly separate the sound of the turntable from the arm and cartridge, let alone from the other systems and rooms over a period of time? It is laughable. I wonder if he will ever show a turntable video review with a Timeline strobe showing speed accuracy and consistency. Of course, the limited Pro Edition is even better than the version he reviewed.

 

[Al M.]

INTROSPECTION AND HYPERBOLE CONTROL REPORT

On September 24, 2015, Peter Breuninger, Founder of AVShowrooms, posted on AVShowroomsforums his Kronos Ltd. Edition Turntable Review. The written introduction to the video begins: “Here is the most profound turntable available today . . .”

[...]

The Kronos may be the best turntable in the world today. But since I have not lined up and compared the Kronos in a controlled way to the other top-of-the-line turntables from the other major turntable manufacturers in the world, I have no idea. Since Peter has not lined up and compared the Kronos in a controlled way to the other top-of-the-line turntables from the other major turntable manufacturers in the world (except for two), Peter has no idea either. The list of top turntable competitors would have to include, in addition to the Walker and the Air Force One, among others, the Clearaudio Statement, the Wave Kinetics, the top-of-the-line VPI, the Grand Prix Monaco, the top-of-the-line Transrotor, the Basis Audio Work of Art and the Vertere RG-1.

If Peter had limited his conclusion to the two other turntables with which he is very familiar then his review would have been intellectually honest. But because Peter goes on to state repeatedly that the Kronos is the best turntable available in the world today, even though he has not evaluated many of the other top turntables in the world today, he is the subject of this Introspection and Hyperbole Control Report.

Great post, Ron.

 

[Al M.]

How could he possibly separate the sound of the turntable from the arm and cartridge, let alone from the other systems and rooms over a period of time? It is laughable.

Very good observations, Peter.

+1
--On the occasions I've heard the Kronos--it was Ok but no cigar

BruceD

The sound of the Kronos Pro Limited Edition with Black Beauty tonearm and Zyx Universe Premium cartridge in Madfloyd's system is the best I have heard from any system so far. But Ron's observations about PeterB's review stand, of course.

 

[bonzo75]

+1
--On the occasions I've heard the Kronos--it was Ok but no cigar

BruceD

I have heard the top of the line Kronos with Graham elite tonearm, it did sound stunning, but that doesn't change the fact that the review above is all that Ron said

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, you beat me to it. I was considering posting the video on this very thread about hyperbole control and introspection. Of course, the big issue for me was that he did not mention any details about if he heard the other turntables with the same arm and cartridge combination. How could he possibly separate the sound of the turntable from the arm and cartridge, let alone from the other systems and rooms over a period of time? It is laughable. I wonder if he will ever show a turntable video review with a Timeline strobe showing speed accuracy and consistency. Of course, the limited Pro Edition is even better than the version he reviewed.

I agree completely with your additional criticisms of Peter B.'s review process. For a supposedly professional reviewer, it is laughable.

 

[Joe Whip]

Well, it certainly plays like an informercial. I must say I am confused at how the TT can bring out all of the life when he is certain that the others that he mentions squeeze all the information from the vinyl grooves. He describes one as leaving out some of the life of the sound at the expense of having such a low noise floor. Really? What is this "life" he is referring to? Perhaps added brightness that shouldn't be there in the first place? Just wondering. Reviews like this are why I long ago stopped paying high end reviewers any attention. Or should I say high performance audio reviewers, which must be a step above the high end?

 

[microstrip]

Ron,

You already know my perspective on this subject is rather different from yours. However, I feel your singles quotes, taken out of the long review in three parts, completely distort the reviewer intentions. Peter Breuninger clearly explains in which conditions and why he made his claims with great detail. IMHO, although hyperbolic, something I have learned to valuate and appreciate, this review shows a lot of introspection.

BTW, it is one of the reasons I prefer written reviews to movies. I can read at less ten times faster than watching a movie, focusing on the details I consider important, but keeping a view of the whole . But, to make it clear, thanks to your remarks, I watched and appreciated a lot Peter review of the Kronos. Surely YMMV.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I feel your singles quotes, taken out of the long review in three parts, completely distort the reviewer intentions. Peter Breuninger clearly explains in which conditions and why he made his claims with great detail. IMHO, although hyperbolic, something I have learned to valuate and appreciate, this review shows a lot of introspection.

I respect your view but I am afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree. I truly do not understand why you believe the quotes I cited "completely distort the reviewer intentions."

I was scrupulously careful to transcribe with perfect accuracy the quotes I cited. I also was careful to include full sentences, and not phrases or partial sentences.

The quotes were indeed taken out of the review, but I took care to make sure that I did not take anything out of context (i.e., CBS 60 Minutes style) to ensure that I was reporting accurately Peter B.'s views. Nothing Peter said, before or after the quotes I reported, was inconsistent with the quotes I reported.

 

[microstrip]

I respect your view but I am afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree. I truly do not understand why you believe the quotes I cited "completely distort the reviewer intentions."

I was scrupulously careful to transcribe with perfect accuracy the quotes I cited. I also was careful to include full sentences, and not phrases or partial sentences.

The quotes were indeed taken out of the review, but I took care to make sure that I did not take anything out of context (i.e., CBS 60 Minutes style) to ensure that I was reporting accurately Peter B.'s views. Nothing Peter said, before or after the quotes I reported, was inconsistent with the quotes I reported.

Ron,

As soon as you are not reproducing the context, the sentences are immediately out of context. Specially if most of them use I think, I believe, in my opinion, and, in my humble opinion, and PB extensively describes in the context why he believes, thinks or it is his opinion. I could understand why he valuates the Kronos from his review, and this is the most interesting aspect for me.

I should add that ratings or recommended lists in high-end have very limited value for me, as I understand they are mostly subjective.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Well, it certainly plays like an informercial. I must say I am confused at how the TT can bring out all of the life when he is certain that the others that he mentions squeeze all the information from the vinyl grooves. He describes one as leaving out some of the life of the sound at the expense of having such a low noise floor. Really? What is this "life" he is referring to? Perhaps added brightness that shouldn't be there in the first place? Just wondering. Reviews like this are why I long ago stopped paying high end reviewers any attention. Or should I say high performance audio reviewers, which must be a step above the high end?

+1. Well, except for the last part. High performance is a step above high end. High performance, i.e. "squeezing all the information from the grooves," is the only/best thing a table can do. Either this "life" is in the grooves or it is in the writer's imagination. There are no other alternatives, other than distortion.

Tim

 

[Ron Resnick]

As soon as you are not reproducing the context, the sentences are immediately out of context. Specially if most of them use I think, I believe, in my opinion, and, in my humble opinion, and PB extensively describes in the context why he believes, thinks or it is his opinion. I could understand why he valuates the Kronos from his review, and this is the most interesting aspect for me.

1) I disagree that, where the quotes are consistent with the statements before and after the quotes, the sentences are per se (i.e., immediately) out of context. I truly do not understand that at all.

Under that view no quote or excerpt ever is valid unless the entire essay or book of which the quote or except is a part is also included?

2) As you see I very carefully included in the statements I transcribed Peter's expressions such as "I believe" and "in my opinion." But the fact that Peter B. uses the terms "I believe" and "in my opinion" has nothing to do with my criticism.

Peter's use of "I believe" and "in my opinion" does not in any way inoculate his declarations that the Kronos is the best turntable in the world, when he has evaluated only two of those many top turntables, from being per se logically defective and per se intellectually dishonest.

 

[microstrip]

1) I disagree that, where the quotes are consistent with the statements before and after the quotes, the sentences are per se (i.e., immediately) out of context.

2) I very carefully included in the statements I transcribed Peter's expressions such as "I believe" and "in my opinion." But the fact that Peter B. uses the terms "I believe" and "in my opinion" has nothing to do with my criticism.

Peter's use of "I believe" and "in my opinion" does not in any way inoculate his declarations that the Kronos is the best turntable in the world, when he has evaluated only two of those many top turntables, from being per se logically defective and per se intellectually dishonest.

Ron,

IMHO before accusing anyone or debating we should have posted a link so that people wanting to spend 30 minutes could figure what is being debated. http://avshowroomsforums.com/showthread.php?325-The-Kronos-review!-View-it-here-first!

I consider any declaration of being the best in the world as metaphorical and hyperbolic. Many reviewers I appreciate and have thought me a lot about the high-end have written similar things sometime in their career. IMHO only after seeing the whole movie we can understand the motivations and limitations of the extrapolation being carried. As I do not have the time to transcribe (long) videos I must respectfully and politely disagree with you without quotes.

 

[BruceD]

Good Points for and against--as one poster states-

"recommended lists in high-end have very limited value for me, as I understand they are mostly subjective."

I think that sums up the statements herewith-- we all vary and somewhat overstate those opinions -probably more on the "Flowery" side than subjective

basically I agree totally with RONR's -re the Peter B hyperbole-- but hey let's not cast too many stones--his input into Audio discussions is worthy of some respect--whether we agree or not

In my case I too will agree to disagree --having heard the Kronos--as good as it is --in my view it is NOT the best in the World

YVMV--and I'll rest my case

BruceD