Introspection and hyperbole control

. The subjectivists are the problem here, or more specifically, any questioning of audiophile conventional wisdom is the problem.

Tim


Tim its a shame you cant see the double standard here.....


Apart from that the reason i posted it this way is to make clear where i stand and that as you can probably guess, wont be reading all those countless threads that have become a no-go zone for so many...
 
Billy, there are quite a few on WBF, and other forums, who take the debating chamber into avenues more akin to a talking shop, and chill out isn't a concept they seem familiar with. Was just commenting on Spazmatron and Detlof, and their probable disdain for pretentiousness. I can't see the objective measurement guys having much in common w/them.

My comment was to politely request entry to their conversation, it's a kind of sad British thing. As opposed to the more US-style "Hiya y'all!...".
You can enter into any conversation the objectivists have. Indeed from my point of view, you are invited to do so. Just follow the forum/subforum rules.
 
The key here is tolerence. I think the creation of the measurements based forum was a good thing, as it should give all the people who think they can measure themselves into hearing good sound a place to exchange. It should be clear that you need a lot of selfe controll if you want to read these threads as a listener without getting inflamed about it. If you cant muster this, its best to stay away.
Mabe we need a more active moderation here.
There should be self-control no matter which part of the forum you are in to not talk about posters. Or state of the forum as it has become fashionable to do so here. The lack of self-control is what led to creation of measurement forum. Heck even its name came from a modification to deal with another round of lack of self-control as people objected to its prior name.

At the same time it is sickening to see the amount of negativity that gets poured out on too people that ask about a certain unorthodox products or tweaks. It seems we forget that a part of freedom of speech is the choice, not to make use of it...
You have the choice to ignore the negative posts as I do every minute I am on the forum. Vast majority of the threads on our forum are of subjectivists/tweeks nature. I read almost all of them and keep going even though many of them run very much counter to my understanding of audio. It is very simple to do. You read the post, and go to the next one without hitting "reply." :D If you have nothing but complaining to do, you should not post. Posts should have value and contribution other than "I don't like what you are talking about."
 
There should be self-control no matter which part of the forum you are in to not talk about posters. Or state of the forum as it has become fashionable to do so here. The lack of self-control is what led to creation of measurement forum. Heck even its name came from a modification to deal with another round of lack of self-control as people objected to its prior name.


You have the choice to ignore the negative posts as I do every minute I am on the forum. Vast majority of the threads on our forum are of subjectivists/tweeks nature. I read almost all of them and keep going even though many of them run very much counter to my understanding of audio. It is very simple to do. You read the post, and go to the next one without hitting "reply." :D If you have nothing but complaining to do, you should not post. Posts should have value and contribution other than "I don't like what you are talking about."


Amir, I agree and can live with everything you say. I have left that "other site" where I had posted for over twenty years, because there too many questions of "what's best" were asked in all naivite, and too many blows were traded in its aftermath. Of course there's jousting here too and here and there I can find posters who seem to like their statements so pointed, that they can and will provoke. I am strongly against any ad hominem remarks, but sometimes I may not like HOW something is being said. I think to have found some masterful minds here whose factually flawless statements seem to provoke more by their 'tone" than by their content. Sometimes there seems to be quite a bit of arrogance coming through the posts from the objectivists field, which can be just as irksome to me as the wails caused by hurt feelings from the subjectivists. So with all due respect to your great work and last not least to this wonderful site you have helped to establish, I think I will shoot off a post now and again in the sense of "I don't like HOW how you are saying this, even if I agree with its contents."
 
Tim its a shame you cant see the double standard here.....


Apart from that the reason i posted it this way is to make clear where i stand and that as you can probably guess, wont be reading all those countless threads that have become a no-go zone for so many...

Oh, I see what you see, but also see the difference. One, "think they can measure themselves into great sound" is dismissing the POV of those who disagree; an exercise of intolerance in a call for tolerance. I've done it before; I recognize it. But "The subjectivists are the problem here, or more specifically, any questioning of audiophile conventional wisdom is the problem" while not as snarky, is criticizing behavior and assigning blame. It's no better, maybe worse, but it's not the same. Time for me to get out of this thread, I think.

Tim
 
There should be self-control no matter which part of the forum you are in to not talk about posters. Or state of the forum as it has become fashionable to do so here. The lack of self-control is what led to creation of measurement forum. Heck even its name came from a modification to deal with another round of lack of self-control as people objected to its prior name.


You have the choice to ignore the negative posts as I do every minute I am on the forum. Vast majority of the threads on our forum are of subjectivists/tweeks nature. I read almost all of them and keep going even though many of them run very much counter to my understanding of audio. It is very simple to do. You read the post, and go to the next one without hitting "reply." :D If you have nothing but complaining to do, you should not post. Posts should have value and contribution other than "I don't like what you are talking about."

Could not agree more......
 
Oh, . But "The subjectivists are the problem here, or more specifically, any questioning of audiophile conventional wisdom is the problem" while not as snarky, is criticizing behavior and assigning blame.

Tim

And extremely dissmissive of other points of view, as yours is apparently "conventional audiophile wisdom" and everything else obviously not...

Time for me to get out of this thread, I think.

I will be joining you in that...just unsubscribed
 
And extremely dissmissive of other points of view, as yours is apparently "conventional audiophile wisdom" and everything else obviously not...



I will be joining you in that...just unsubscribed

I wrote "what audiophiles think they hear." It sounded worse.
 
i am off to london later this month for the olympia horse show.. been a few times but 2 things take me back year on year
1. my GF loves horses and seeing so happy is great
2. i love the smell of horse poo.. even more so indoors.

now i wonder what that means about me?
You're not and audio- but and equophile and almost as full of horsesh*t as me and now please STOP IT or we'll both get thrown from this site......
 
INTROSPECTION AND HYPERBOLE CONTROL VIOLATION BY KEN C. POHLMANN REGARDING VINYL

In the February/March 2016 issue of Sound & Vision Ken C. Pohlmann wrote about "The Rise and Fall and Rise of Vinyl."

After making a comparison between vinyl records and physical books and reciting the statistics about the growth in sales of vinyl records, Ken asks: "Is it conceivable that consumers want to turn back the clock on music technology? . . . For music delivery that is charmingly antedeluvian."

He continues: "Compared to obviously technically superior files, vinyl is bulky and fragile, prone to defects and degrades with use. Vinyl is everything that modern consumers shouldn't want. But they do want vinyl. Why? Because compared to all other music delivery methods, vinyl is hopelessly, romantically sensual."

So our interest in vinyl has nothing to do with getting us closer to recreating an original musical experience; has nothing to do with greater emotional connection to the music we love; and has nothing to do with preferring the sound of vinyl. Our enthusiasm for vinyl has nothing to do with sound quality.

According to Ken we turn to vinyl playback to make up for the romance and sensuality lacking in our lives?

Like the FBI who wanted to charge Al Capone with murder but settled for tax evasion to get him off the streets, I want to prosecute Ken C. Pohlmann for felony ignorance, but since that is out of my jurisdiction I will settle for charging him with an introspection and hyperbole control violation.

Pohlmann's statement that "files" are "obviously technically superior" to vinyl records, without any explanation or objective or subjective proof, or any recognition or discussion of the fact that many people prefer the sound of vinyl, makes him guilty of an introspection and hyperbole control violation.
 
I think Ken is onto something.
 
Well, I don't want to go down that digital/vinyl rabbit hole, but will say that I spoke with my 25 year old niece who happens to be studying in London right now about this very subject. She bought an entry level TT and thinks it is cool. She digs(nice to use that old chestnut) holding the record, the larger artwork, putting the needle down and getting sound. In a long conversation listening to music, she never once commented that she enjoyed the sound more. Maybe she does. She just didn't comment on it. However, we were listening to some fine sounding digital files at the time, including my son's studio files. Just my 2 cents or is that pence!
 
INTROSPECTION AND HYPERBOLE CONTROL VIOLATION BY KEN C. POHLMANN REGARDING VINYL

In the February/March 2016 issue of Sound & Vision Ken C. Pohlmann wrote about "The Rise and Fall and Rise of Vinyl."

After making a comparison between vinyl records and physical books and reciting the statistics about the growth in sales of vinyl records, Ken asks: "Is it conceivable that consumers want to turn back the clock on music technology? . . . For music delivery that is charmingly antedeluvian."

He continues: "Compared to obviously technically superior files, vinyl is bulky and fragile, prone to defects and degrades with use. Vinyl is everything that modern consumers shouldn't want. But they do want vinyl. Why? Because compared to all other music delivery methods, vinyl is hopelessly, romantically sensual."

So our interest in vinyl has nothing to do with getting us closer to recreating an original musical experience; has nothing to do with greater emotional connection to the music we love; and has nothing to do with preferring the sound of vinyl. Our enthusiasm for vinyl has nothing to do with sound quality.

According to Ken we turn to vinyl playback to make up for the romance and sensuality lacking in our lives?

Like the FBI who wanted to charge Al Capone with murder but settled for tax evasion to get him off the streets, I want to prosecute Ken C. Pohlmann for felony ignorance, but since that is out of my jurisdiction I will settle for charging him with an introspection and hyperbole control violation.

Pohlmann's statement that "files" are "obviously technically superior" to vinyl records, without any explanation or objective or subjective proof, or any recognition or discussion of the fact that many people prefer the sound of vinyl, makes him guilty of an introspection and hyperbole control violation.

He's correct. Digital files are technically a superior method of delivering music for reproduction. And he's not ignorant. He literally wrote the book on digital audio.
 
Well said, Ron.

As for the "obviously technical superiority" of files, this certainly holds in a certain sense, as far as 'traditional' measurements are concerned, and I agree with Dallasjustice on that. Yet I am afraid that such measurements of both digital and vinyl may miss certain aspects of reproduction that are important to human perception. An unexpected kind of "technical superiority" of vinyl might show up in other types of measurements that in principle must be performable but which we have not yet been able to actually discern and subsequently perform. And no, I don't accept the facile explaining away of the phenomenon by the measurement crowd as "preference for euphonic coloration" in vinyl. There is something deeper going on, which we can not yet put our (measurement) finger on. I find the sound of SOTA vinyl (on the best recordings/pressings) preferable to most digital too, even though I am and will remain a digital-only guy and have no emotional ownership stake in the issue. I don't prefer the best vinyl for "euphonic colorations", but because some things simply sound more real on the medium.

On the other hand, I do believe that digital theory is perfect in principle, and I don't buy the argument of "loss of information" due to sampling. It just appears that, at least for most digital that I have heard, the practical implementation is still removed from theoretical perfection to a significantly audible extent. There may be exceptions of digital gear that come closer to theoretical perfection.
 
BIG difference between hipsters buying a cheap TT and a few LPs at Urban Outfitters vs high end audiophile TTs...
 
Agreed but not my point. My point was to provide anecdotal evidence of the romance element in some of the purchasing of vinyl as noted in Ron's post. Nothing more.
 
I agree Ken's statement about digital files without supporting information does seem to be hyperbole. I happen to agree with him and with dallasjustice on his view, however. Though I have not heard a tippy top digital player in a long time, I see no need, 6 of my closest audiophile friends and I all agree that computer playback from hard drive sounds slightly but noticeably better than playback of the optical disc.

There are many plausible explanations as to why that might be so, even into an external DAC where both playback modes are treated equally and not using the player's DAC. That is how we all do it. Suffice it to say, we all greatly enjoy PC playback from our easy chairs, browsing and selecting albums or tracks on our iPads. But, we would not go there if it did not also have a sonic advantage on which we unanimously agree.

On the other hand, I do not find Ken's comments about vinyl to be anything other than accurate, i.e., non-hyperbolic. Again, my gang of 6 very senior audiophiles, all with thousands of LPs in their collections and very high quality vinyl rigs, just do not listen to vinyl anymore in favor of digital rips of SACD, BD-A, BD-V, hi rez downloads, and, yes, their CD collections. Actually, with one holdout, most of us listen primarily to hi rez Mch, and we all find DSP Room EQ absolutely essential. BTW, my gang are all classical music lovers who frequently go to live Philadelphia Orchestra concerts. Our sonic reference is very much framed by that.

We also have a reviewer friend who used to be well known here, but who subscribes to a very different audio philosophy. All of us have heard pristinely set up vinyl front ends at his place costing hundred of $thousands used in systems costing additional hundreds of $thousands. To say that we were all unimpressed, sonically, would be an understatement. We cannot believe the negative difference, not in any way in his favor. It is embarrassing, but not to him. One cannot talk to him civilly about our views. And, of course, our reviewer friend has never heard any of our systems. He lives in his own ego-world, seldom to venture out. Nor, is he a regular concert attendee. He has shifted his attention more to rock and pop, partly so as to be more "with it" for today's younger audiences.

It is almost surreal, and an insight for us into just how deeply different music lovers can latch onto and embrace totally different philosophies and beliefs. That is not to mention our total lack of esteem for our reviewer friend's sonic standards when he hyperbolically heaps praises on components we have also heard, but which none of us are the least bit desirous of. We just shrug our shoulders.
 
There is always the possibility that someday we may find some previously unknown and unmeasured parameter, in the stunningly mature technology of vinyl, that reveals more of the recording so faithfully that it trumps the noise floor, the crosstalk, the FR limitations, the timing errors...the list is pretty long. It could happen. But for now, we have coloration. Or distortion if you'd rather. Or simply inferior performance by nearly every known metric, even when compared to humble Redbook. But yeah, someday what the vinyl guys could all be posthumously validated. In the meantime, if it sounds better to you, enjoy it.

Tim
 
There is always the possibility that someday we may find some previously unknown and unmeasured parameter...

Well...

You put on on LP and spin it up, of course you are looking at it while you drop the needle, and then like, wow...

giphy.gif
 
Well...

You put on on LP and spin it up, of course you are looking at it while you drop the needle, and then like, wow...

giphy.gif

Ray's encoding subliminal messages into our brain. Don't fall for it, it's a trap!
 

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