Introspection and hyperbole control

[Ron Resnick]

Oh dear, don't tell Ron.
D'ato Danon Han of Mono And Stereo has been listening to the Kronos Ltd Edition tt against a couple of others and is tentatively proclaiming it the best tt in the world, not just the best tt in that company.
Has the phantom spirit of Peter "Wanker" B invaded this guy, like a nasty form of Being John Malkovich? Over to you Ron.

Dato' Danon Hon is a widely respected viewer, as is his colleague, Matej Isak, in Mono and Stereo. In my experience their reviews are thoughtful, measured and introspective. I have never read anything by Dato' Danon Hon which sounds like a paid info-mercial.

Yes, I would have preferred if Dato' Danon Hon had not made such a broad pronouncement. However, I believe that Dato' Danon Hon has auditioned (and I do not mean at shows) a very wide range of turntables, making his conclusion less manifestly illogical than Peter B's conclusion, which was based on a sample set of only three turntables.

By the way, do you know if Peter B sells banner space or advertising pages on his websites? If not, how do you suppose he gets paid?

 

[bonzo75]

Do you know what are the Mono and Stereo recommended Analog components? Going to their website now

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Prior to the time Peter B kicked me off I did notice that threads did not have objectivist grenades tossed into subjectivist discussions. But I also noticed that much of the forum was Peter B and Myles talking to my friend Greg Beron.

Ron, I hope you're not suggesting that is the problem here. Look around the turntables forum, the tweak forum...anyplace else that is, by its nature, subjectivist. How many "objectivist grenades" have been tossed? Now, an exercise in contrasts - peruse the measurements-based forum and see how many subjectivists are over there, objecting loudly and presenting their same old arguments. Better yet, go find some threads in the general audio forum featuring a measurement-based evaluation that reveals flaws in a sacred cow, and observe the subjectivist's behavior in those discussions. Amir's thread about Harman speaker testing is a perfect example. Martin Logan fared very poorly, even when compared a pair of mid-fi speakers in those tests, and the subjectivists came out out of the woodwork to object and argue and wring their hands, sometimes getting pretty nasty. That eventually resulted in the creation of the measurements-based forum, in the hope of giving people a place for more objective, science and engineering-based discussions where they wouldn't result in a cat fight. It didn't work. People go over there and argue against the data with the same old subjective arguments all the time. The subjectivists are the problem here, or more specifically, any questioning of audiophile conventional wisdom is the problem. It always results in long, argumentative threads that veer off-topic.

Tim

 

[KeithR]

Tim, with all honesty, its become much worse as of late. you can't recommend a speaker or amp without someone chiming in and posting up or requiring measurements aka. "grenades." or folks acting like they know how to make gear better than established designers! if you can't seem to fathom this, PM Dr. Williams about the feedback he's receiving.

the problem is both sides are indoctrinated, so we end up in a big pointless circle. i actually enjoy the technical arguments and have learned quite a bit, but you can't put 100% of the blame on subjectivists not listening to objectivist arguments when the latter have no intention of changing their opinion either. ask yourself this question- have you changed ANY of your viewpoints since joining this forum?

if you just want your measurements forum to be objectivists agreeing with each other, how's that any different from Peter's BS, total kumbaya, subjectivist forum.

 

[Detlof]

Tim, with all honesty, its become much worse as of late. you can't recommend a speaker or amp without someone chiming in and posting up or requiring measurements aka. "grenades." or folks acting like they know how to make gear better than established designers! if you can't seem to fathom this, PM Dr. Williams about the feedback he's receiving.

the problem is both sides are indoctrinated, so we end up in a big pointless circle. i actually enjoy the technical arguments and have learned quite a bit, but you can't put 100% of the blame on subjectivists not listening to objectivist arguments when the latter have no intention of changing their opinion either. ask yourself this question- have you changed ANY of your viewpoints since joining this forum?

if you just want your measurements forum to be objectivists agreeing with each other, how's that any different from Peter's BS, total kumbaya, subjectivist forum.

I think there is a lively discussion and of course disagreements within both camps. It is quite a natural thing. I myself have worked on the fringe of both camps in my profession and I got along fine with both sides, giving and taking. What I could not bear then and cannot bear now on so many forums concerning our hobby, are the fundamentalists on both sides. They block all fruitful exchanges. refuse mutual respect for differing opinions and at the end block any enventual advancement of knowledge, because sometimes it needs a subjectivist dream to be brought to fruition by objectivist science. More often than not, all we are exposed to, is the same old circle, a stupefying bitter discourse, being repeated hundredfold without end.

 

[PeterA]

Ron, I hope you're not suggesting that is the problem here. Look around the turntables forum, the tweak forum...anyplace else that is, by its nature, subjectivist. How many "objectivist grenades" have been tossed? Now, an exercise in contrasts - peruse the measurements-based forum and see how many subjectivists are over there, objecting loudly and presenting their same old arguments. Better yet, go find some threads in the general audio forum featuring a measurement-based evaluation that reveals flaws in a sacred cow, and observe the subjectivist's behavior in those discussions. Amir's thread about Harman speaker testing is a perfect example. Martin Logan fared very poorly, even when compared a pair of mid-fi speakers in those tests, and the subjectivists came out out of the woodwork to object and argue and wring their hands, sometimes getting pretty nasty. That eventually resulted in the creation of the measurements-based forum, in the hope of giving people a place for more objective, science and engineering-based discussions where they wouldn't result in a cat fight. It didn't work. People go over there and argue against the data with the same old subjective arguments all the time. The subjectivists are the problem here, or more specifically, any questioning of audiophile conventional wisdom is the problem. It always results in long, argumentative threads that veer off-topic.

Tim

Tim, I agree with you that often sacred audio cows are vigorously defended, perhaps beyond reasonable point. But, as I recall, there were some legitimate questions about Harman's testing methodology on that thread, including amplifier selection and speaker placement. I thought those were warranted. In a recent turntable drive type discussion, measurements were presented but those defending measurements did not seem to be able to discuss why certain turntables sound different, though they measured very similarly.

I think both sides contribute to the issues discussed, and actually that only a few members are truly dogmatic on either side. It seems that most WBF members fall somewhere on the spectrum, both respecting the role of measurements in the design process and certain evaluations, and relying on subjective listening impressions to reach conclusions. And I thought this view had been established in the various other threads and various polls.

Personally, I no longer enter the measurement forum unless I have specific data to contribute to a discussion. Few of us do have this data and perhaps that is why the measurement forum is not very active.

 

[thedudeabides]

Martin Logan fared very poorly, even when compared a pair of mid-fi speakers in those tests, Tim

Regardless of measurements, properly set up with the right gear, ML's can sound spectacular and represent a true value from the cost / performance perspective. If that was the basis for subjective comments, then they are entirely justified. Given the design, most dipoles do not measure well to say the least.

FWIW, I've had four different ML models over some 25 years.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Regardless of measurements, properly set up with the right gear, ML's can sound spectacular and represent a true value from the cost / performance perspective. If that was the basis for subjective comments, then they are entirely justified. Given the design, most dipoles do not measure well to say the least.

FWIW, I've had four different ML models over some 25 years.

I agree. I have been loyal to the brand since 1986. Placement in the room, and of course, other system components are the keys. My original CLS I thru IIz's were obviously weak from the mid bass on down. Even subwoofers could not fix the anemic mid-bass. The hybrids with dynamic woofers have been much better in that regard. But, the sense of coherence, an illusion perhaps, due to one single electrostatic element and the lack of crossovers or different drivers above a few hundred Hz is a sound that is very special, to me at least. Properly set up - with at least 5 ft. behind them - they seem to disappear as separate sound sources as few other speakers do.

 

[caesar]

I guess Peter Breuninger finally saw my Introspection and Hyperbole Control report on his review of the Kronos (post #222 of this thread), and he couldn't take the heat. Instead of responding in a genteel manner he deleted my AVShowroomsforums account and banned my email address! (No loss for me there, except I do like and respect Myles, both personally and professionally.)

I am sorry about that. I like both Peter "the Great" Breuninger and Myles - having chatted with them at shows, they are mensches. But I wonder why Peter, who thinks Kronos is the best doesn't ban Myles, who I think uses VPI - because he thinks it's the best.

Furthermore, in what may have been his last review before he died, Harry Pearson called Kronos the best turntable on the planet today. Yet the new regime at TAS only relegated the kronos review not to valin or dr. dre, their top analog guy, but to some dude named mr. weaver, a dude whom i have never heard of.

It's all just opinion and I'm not sure why guys get all huffy when someone doesn't agree with their taste.

 

[Billy Shears]

Ron, I hope you're not suggesting that is the problem here. Look around the turntables forum, the tweak forum...anyplace else that is, by its nature, subjectivist. How many "objectivist grenades" have been tossed? Now, an exercise in contrasts - peruse the measurements-based forum and see how many subjectivists are over there, objecting loudly and presenting their same old arguments. Better yet, go find some threads in the general audio forum featuring a measurement-based evaluation that reveals flaws in a sacred cow, and observe the subjectivist's behavior in those discussions. Amir's thread about Harman speaker testing is a perfect example. Martin Logan fared very poorly, even when compared a pair of mid-fi speakers in those tests, and the subjectivists came out out of the woodwork to object and argue and wring their hands, sometimes getting pretty nasty. That eventually resulted in the creation of the measurements-based forum, in the hope of giving people a place for more objective, science and engineering-based discussions where they wouldn't result in a cat fight. It didn't work. People go over there and argue against the data with the same old subjective arguments all the time. The subjectivists are the problem here, or more specifically, any questioning of audiophile conventional wisdom is the problem. It always results in long, argumentative threads that veer off-topic.

Tim

The key here is tolerence. I think the creation of the measurements based forum was a good thing, as it should give all the people who think they can measure themselves into hearing good sound a place to exchange. It should be clear that you need a lot of selfe controll if you want to read these threads as a listener without getting inflamed about it. If you cant muster this, its best to stay away.
Mabe we need a more active moderation here.
At the same time it is sickening to see the amount of negativity that gets poured out on too people that ask about a certain unorthodox products or tweaks. It seems we forget that a part of freedom of speech is the choice, not to make use of it...

 

[Detlof]

Could not agree more! And Caesar, did not already the Romans state, that discussions about taste lead to nowhere? ( de gustibus non est diputandum ) The Romans were great pragmatists and hence thought it a pointless waste of time. We all have our tastes about practically everything and nobody gets huffy, when somebody prefers the taste of beans to that of peas. But in cases of heavy investments of money and even more of emotions, we tend to bristle easily when our sacred cows fall into critical review. I guess it is human nature and the more deep down there lies some insecurity about our choices, the more, I think, we tend to throw a tantrum.

 

[Detlof]

you never fail to be clever amusing in your posts.. i think your previous one sums up humans defending thier lump of mud and rock or wires and boxes rather well i think thier is a tendency to define ones self via a job or hobby or in this case a amp etc that and the fact this mode of interaction is lacks face to face human physical interaction and may lead to false battles that most otherwise might not part take in.
surely its the dream the therory then the science. we need a hifi hydron collider here. a great example of lots of bickering being solved...ish. mind you seems to of just opened the gate way to more advanced bickering... must be a human thing you dont get it were i come from.

Ha, great minds think alike! Seems I'm full of quotes today, apart from the usual horse sh*t in my mind. Am all for a hydron collider here! Any ideas how to implement it? Afraid you may be right, that I opened the gate to even more of the above. So let's get that machine quick!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Boys, is this a private party, or can anyone join? You seem to have perfected the perfect hybrid of debating chamber/chill-out space.

 

[Detlof]

Boys, is this a private party, or can anyone join? You seem to have perfected the perfect hybrid of debating chamber/chill-out space.

I for myself plead guilty! Sometimes it needs that, I feel. It is called comic relief in drama, but I like your definition of it better.

 

[Billy Shears]

Boys, is this a private party, or can anyone join? You seem to have perfected the perfect hybrid of debating chamber/chill-out space.

What, as opposed to creating a place where nobody with a little self respect feels comfortable in joining in anymore?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Billy, there are quite a few on WBF, and other forums, who take the debating chamber into avenues more akin to a talking shop, and chill out isn't a concept they seem familiar with. Was just commenting on Spazmatron and Detlof, and their probable disdain for pretentiousness. I can't see the objective measurement guys having much in common w/them.
My comment was to politely request entry to their conversation, it's a kind of sad British thing. As opposed to the more US-style "Hiya y'all!...".

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The key here is tolerence. I think the creation of the measurements based forum was a good thing, as it should give all the people who think they can measure themselves into hearing good sound a place to exchange. It should be clear that you need a lot of selfe controll if you want to read these threads as a listener without getting inflamed about it. If you cant muster this, its best to stay away.
Mabe we need a more active moderation here.
At the same time it is sickening to see the amount of negativity that gets poured out on too people that ask about a certain unorthodox products or tweaks. It seems we forget that a part of freedom of speech is the choice, not to make use of it...

An example of that tolerance?

Tim

 

[Detlof]

An example of that tolerance?

Tim

Please come on now, voicing a feeling of "sickening" about the lack of tolerance in others does not imply a lack of tolerance in general, but then perhaps you love being polemic. Generally it is fun to read and I can quite easily be tolerant with that.

 

[Billy Shears]

The subjectivists are the problem here[/B], or more specifically, any questioning of audiophile conventional wisdom is the problem. .

Tim

No, that kind of tolerence.....

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

You guys are missing the point. Here's the post I was responding to:

should give all the people who think they can measure themselves into hearing good sound a place to exchange.

I'm not holding myself up as an example of tolerance. I've tempered my response to this stuff a lot in the last year or so, but my belief hasn't changed, and my belief is intolerant of some views. But I'm not calling for tolerance and making broad intolerant statements about those who disagree with me in the same breath.

Tim