Too late for me... My wife just found me sleep walking outside. And it is not even night time!
Introspection and hyperbole control
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
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Too late for me... My wife just found me sleep walking outside. And it is not even night time!
As proof does he even cite a straw poll?Has he conducted some deep Freudian analasys. Probably it is just "obvious" to him. Technical sueriority usually is not obvious. By it's very nature it requires some technical knowledge. Could he share it with us.
It is probably true dgital is technally superior (or at least more technically complex) and subject to less wear amd tear. On the other hand the CD is infinitely degradible. So to elctronic files are subject to compromise and degradation. The tecnical superiority is irrelevant. It is the resultant sound quality that matters.
Let's give him credit for being civil and aacknowledging that digital is just a "file" and nothing more as is vinyl. With Valentines Day just around the corner it's okay to be romantic about vinyl playback. We love it beacasue it is superior.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
You must prop your eye lids open with toothpicks so you can't blink and stare at it for at least 15 mins for best results.
His most recent edition is 800 pages. He's probably demonstrated a more complete knowledge of how digital audio works than any man on earth.
On page 16, he offers a very understandable (to me) explanation which clearly demonstrates why digital encoding greatly reduces the number of opportunities for the audio signal to be degraded, unlike analog wherein the signal can only be represented as a continuous signal. This is problematic because every circuit and storage medium throughout the long chain WILL contribute their noise to the original waveform. Digital audio doesn't have this problem because the numerical representation of the waveform means that it is immune from the types of noise from which analog mediums suffer. In the end, he acknowledges digital has its own "substantial anomalies" even though digital systems "easily surpass" analog systems.
Dallas, this is not 100% correct. Digital has its own distortions. See Benchmark Media's discussion on zero crossing distortion. Also, jitter has proven very difficult to control and can creep up during recording (I do hirez classical recordings). And then you have limitations on the particular PCM or DSD format itself (see Bob Stuart's Coding2 pdf).
Also, analog's distortions are often overblown especially when people talk to limitations of LP or reel to reel tape. The LP can hold a 50khz signal which equates to a 100khz sampling rate as Bob Ludwig has pointed out. And anyone who has lots of experience with reel to reel knows how amazing they can sound. This is why so many sophisticated artists and studios still favor, where they can, 2" analog tape.
Good post ?
* Analog well recorded (vinyl, tape) and well manufactured, maintained...can sound marvelous. I did my own music recordings long time ago from an open-reel-tape recorder (4 tracks) and it was an auditory rejouissance. My friend musician loves to talk R-2-R tape machines...you can tell the essence of the true power in music recordings.
Digital? Awesome! ...I love my ECM music recordings, and Reference Recordings and Channel Classics and AudioQuest Music and Analog Production Originals...CDs and SACDs.
...Digital hi res downloads.
With digital you can do so much more...multichannel, REQ, portability, accessibility, easy maintenance, tra-la-la all that jazz.
Turntables are sensual down to the bone; hyper-sensuality just looking @ the platine spinning.
Besides, that's where we all come from originally...us in our seventies and sixties and fifties. That music love of our youth is an impossible dream to replace.
The experience we had then is today's multi folded by the amazing advancements in tracking, speed, tangential obedience, stylus precision, non-reflective arms, massed loaded plinths, electronically adjusted, accurate, and better vinyl factories with the best remastering plants.
And! Stereo is what we grew up with, just after mono.
And! Women prefer turntables...analog...to digital ones.
If I could go back in time I would go back with The Beatles and The Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd and John Coltrane and Johnny Winter. ...When vinyl pressings was the mode of the day for the well intellectually advanced elite. ...But that's just me and how my mind works.
Nous sommes du soleil - We love when we play - Yes: Tales from Topographic Oceans (Double LP) ? http://www.metrolyrics.com/ritual-nous-sommes-du-soleil-lyrics-yes.html
* Analog well recorded (vinyl, tape) and well manufactured, maintained...can sound marvelous. I did my own music recordings long time ago from an open-reel-tape recorder (4 tracks) and it was an auditory rejouissance. My friend musician loves to talk R-2-R tape machines...you can tell the essence of the true power in music recordings.
Digital? Awesome! ...I love my ECM music recordings, and Reference Recordings and Channel Classics and AudioQuest Music and Analog Production Originals...CDs and SACDs.
...Digital hi res downloads.
With digital you can do so much more...multichannel, REQ, portability, accessibility, easy maintenance, tra-la-la all that jazz.
Turntables are sensual down to the bone; hyper-sensuality just looking @ the platine spinning.
Besides, that's where we all come from originally...us in our seventies and sixties and fifties. That music love of our youth is an impossible dream to replace.
The experience we had then is today's multi folded by the amazing advancements in tracking, speed, tangential obedience, stylus precision, non-reflective arms, massed loaded plinths, electronically adjusted, accurate, and better vinyl factories with the best remastering plants.
And! Stereo is what we grew up with, just after mono.
And! Women prefer turntables...analog...to digital ones.
If I could go back in time I would go back with The Beatles and The Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd and John Coltrane and Johnny Winter. ...When vinyl pressings was the mode of the day for the well intellectually advanced elite. ...But that's just me and how my mind works.
Nous sommes du soleil - We love when we play - Yes: Tales from Topographic Oceans (Double LP) ? http://www.metrolyrics.com/ritual-nous-sommes-du-soleil-lyrics-yes.html
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Adding on, I have analyzed a number of digital captures of tape. There is no life at 50 Khz. Or anything close to it. All that is there are distortions and stuff that is not supposed to be there.
I was mentioning the love of our youth, the unique experience, in a realistic and fashionable approach. ...Both technologies inspired me to write poetry and songs, expanding my intellect, the depth of my soul. ...We cannot compare 1955 with 2015 ... it is simply an impossible dream.
I was 1 (in total ecstasy), my friend was 16 (already a musician).
I was 1 (in total ecstasy), my friend was 16 (already a musician).
Maybe he assumes we all read his book. Listen, there is no shortage of digital of artifacts. i have watched each reincarnation of a more perfect digital format over the decades, Each more "perfect" than tlast. What is the latest,o Quad DSD ?No doubt another one is just around the corner.
Love affairs are not unique to vinylphiles. I never saw ttem sleeping on the sidewalk waiting for the latest audio product to be launched. I could suppose we could just as easily fall in love with this.
The point is why does he need to resort a laymans' argument if he is so technically astute? Perhaps he descended into hperbole because he though his technical knowledge was unequal to the task.
Now if only there was some way to alert people to the authority for your position.:b
i wonder if they have that book at the library.
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Absolutely true, but digital's own distortions are not ghosts in the machine. When distortions like jitter, whether it is built up in the recording process or added by playback equipment, get big enough to matter to our ears (i.e.: audible) don't they manifest themselves as measurable deviations at the speaker? I think they do; I think if you measured vinyl and digital of the same master, through a reference monitor system, in an anechoic room, there would be obvious measured differences between them. Haven't done it, could be wrong, but it's a pretty good guess. Why imagine what it is? It's right there. Is something "thinned?" Is there some new audible noise or FR deviation that would make the sound harsh? Measurable. Look at analog. Is there magic in the midrange? You'd probably find some deviation from linearity in a range that would explain that, if you really want it explained.
Of course I'm guessing, because no one is taking these kinds of measurements. I think that's because most scientists thought this was settled a couple of decades ago.
Tim
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That is not a polite or proper thing to say Mike. We have membership from both sides of the fence. We can discuss technical points but not constantly teasing each other in this manner.
I hope I don't have to post any more reminders of this.
Bob was comparing LP to CD. I was referencing digital issues at 16/44 too.
If you get to 24/176 (where I do most of my recordings) or 24/192 or DSD, then things are much closer or even the same and of course dependent on other variables.
I will say this. My own position on analog vs. digital has evolved to the following:
1. LPs can sound excellent. Reels even better.
2. CDs can sound damn good. Hirez digital (DVD-Audio, 24/88 or higher, or Super Audio CD or corresponding computer files) can sound excellent.
3. The quality of the original recording and the quality of the mastering can have as much or even more impact.
4. As a corollary to #3, I may prefer a particular album in LP and another in hirez format. Sometimes I even prefer a specific CD.
Lee
1. LPs can sound excellent. Reels even better.
2. CDs can sound damn good. Hirez digital (DVD-Audio, 24/88 or higher, or Super Audio CD or corresponding computer files) can sound excellent.
3. The quality of the original recording and the quality of the mastering can have as much or even more impact.
4. As a corollary to #3, I may prefer a particular album in LP and another in hirez format. Sometimes I even prefer a specific CD.
Lee
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