Introspection and hyperbole control

[bonzo75]

Yes for a small percentage of folks who grew up in the era of analog and mechanical apparatuses (the industrial age), you will never be able to replace the feeling you get when experiencing the joy the format gave you in your younger years with a lifeless, digital apparatus that simply isn't real in your mind. And I realize this. But, we also need to acknowledge that this is the real reason that vinyl is preferred by the older generation. It's much the same as getting behind the wheel of that classic muscle car you always dreamed about in your younger years but, now you can finally afford it. You don't buy the 1955 Mercedes gullwing because it can do a faster lap on the Nurburgring than the 2016 AMG GTS, You do it for the feeling it brings you. The prestige, the nostalgia, and the feeling.

But from another angle, we don't want to mislead the younger generation who doesn't have this deeply embedded emotional attachment with the format into believing they will get something more out of their music by spending 100K + on a vinyl rig, over a few grand on a digital rig. For me this is the real issue.

The real bottleneck with digital as we discussed in the other thread I linked to, is the source material. But with guys like Bruce offering services like this, there is no reason that we need the vinyl rig to offer the same actual sound in our listening rooms anymore.

Was he not warned by both and Amir and Steve not to troll for the umpteenth time yesterday?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Was he not warned by both and Amir and Steve not to troll for the umpteenth time yesterday?

He was. What do you see in this last post that is trolling? Unless politely expressing an opinion, knowing there are many who who will disagree is trolling, I'm not sure I get your point at all.

Tim

 

[spazmatron]

Well Tim I agree, maybe introspection is needed after all

 

[Blizzard]

Just like previously saying "shhhh, the vinyl guys don't realize that digital has moved beyond the CD", you are again wrong about them growing up in the industrial age. Some of it is about nostalgia I'm sure, but it is also about slowing down and appreciating a more tactile experience. Relaxing and being washed over with great sound. The "Slow Food" movement is a bit like this. It is about the whole experience.

I never lusted after American 70s muscle cars. More a 1973 911S or similar. I once had a 1971 911T Targa in my 20s. Nice car. I also don't think the vinyl enthusiasts are trying to mislead the younger generation about the joys of analog. They are discovering this themselves.

Has Bruce compiled an entire vinyl rip catalog that he has made from all of the LP owners who have sent him their records for ripping on his SME 30 turntable? There must be some great music floating around in his archives and it would avoid having to track down and purchase those great LPs on Ebay. That is a great service and would be worth considering if one has the digital players to play the music.

The industrial age was the age before computers. It seems that the generation growing up in the information age doesn't have much of an issue swiping a piece of glass to cue up a music selection. I grew up in part of the industrial age as well, yet I still would rather swipe a piece of glass to cue up an album. But like you I do find it very annoying when people flip through songs continuously. I still like to play albums start to finish. This can still be done with an iPad based GUI.

I'm not sure if Bruce could share what's in his archives already. I think the service is more for archiving your personal collection you send him. But I can imagine he has a pretty decent personal collection of his own

 

[Blizzard]

As this statement, itself, is close to, if it is not already, an introspection and hyperbole control violation how about we get you out of trouble by modifying the statement to limit it to your opinion and to your sonic preferences:

It won't be long before a small box the size of a smartphone can replace, for my ears and the sonic preferences I happen to prefer, a full amp/pre/DAC/phono and all the cables.

You may prefer the sound of one of these systems as well. Until you hear what will be mainstream 10-15 years from now, it's hard to have an opinion on it.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

There is not even agreement among digital proponenets.

I watched the video, and I thought it was excellent. Thank you for posting it.

Having said that, I am scratching my head as to your comment. First, the video is not relevant to this thread. There is no, as in zero, hyperbole contained in it. If you believe that somehow this elementary Sampling 101 summary, as accepted by knowledgable experts everywhere is somehow false, misleading claptrap, then what can I say? What is presented is not opinion. It is established fact.

Second, it says absolutely nothing controversial, unless one still wishes, in spite of the evidence presented before our eyes, to continue to believe in stair steps and other digital myths, which are distortions of fact and of reality.

Note that the video does not ever say or imply digital is perfect in every respect. There is much more to consider about digital reproduction than was presented in the video, excellent though it was.

 

[Steve williams]

Until you hear what will be mainstream 10-15 years from now, it's hard to have an opinion on it.

well in that case Mike I'm curious as to how "you" have heard what mainstream audio will be in 10-15 years that you have such an opinion. If you're so clairvoyant I would look to you to be picking the power ball numbers

Mike. This is getting tiresome in your argument against members who enjoy vinyl. This was suggested to you yesterday in no uncertain terms about your constant derision of people who only enjoy vinyl. We appreciate your zeal but I am here to tell you that your put down of the members who enjoy vinyl is going to stop today. We get it. We know how you feel but unless in the future you have something substantive to add I am going to ask you to think before you hit the reply button as these comments of yours are over as of today. I hope that I have made myself clear

 

[Blizzard]

well in that case Mike I'm curious as to how "you" have heard what mainstream audio will be in 10-15 years that you have such an opinion. If you're so clairvoyant I would look to you to be picking the power ball numbers

Mike. This is getting tiresome in your argument against members who enjoy vinyl. This was suggested to you yesterday in no uncertain terms about your constant derision of people who only enjoy vinyl. We appreciate your zeal but I am here to tell you that your put down of the members who enjoy vinyl is going to stop today. We get it. We know how you feel but unless in the future you have something substantive to add I am going to ask you to think before you hit the reply button as these comments of yours are over as of today. I hope that I have made myself clear

I never claimed to have heard audio from 10-15 years from now. I'm just explaining How technology is making it possible to make the audio form factors smaller and smaller. Remember how big a computer was in the 50's? Now we have computers in watches 1000 times more powerful.

My argument isn't against folks who like vinyl. I've actually even suggested a way we can all unite as one and enjoy the sound of vinyl from all different form factors. I'm not sure where the put downs have been here? Please copy and paste where I have put down anybody?

 

[Steve williams]

I never claimed to have heard audio from 10-15 years from now. I'm just explaining How technology is making it possible to make the audio form factors smaller and smaller.

My argument isn't against folks who like vinyl. I've actually even suggested a way we can all unite as one and enjoy the sound of vinyl from all different form factors. I'm not sure where the put downs have been here? Please copy and paste where I have put down anybody?

Mike

I have made my point and you have made yours. Simply put, the little jabs and innuendos that end your posts serve absolutely no purpose except to anger and polarize the members to whom you think you aren't addressing. I won't have anything further to say about it here. If you want to discuss it please take it off line and we will but suffice it to say I won't comment further here about it and I am encouraging you to re read your posts before your hit the reply button. Thanks for your understanding

 

[Gregadd]

I watched that and there is nothing to disagree with. They are basics of sampling and signal processing and anyone who understands them, will explain them the same way.

He sure is trying to clear up what he believes are the misconceptions of someone,

 

[Gregadd]

I watched that and there is nothing to disagree with. They are basics of sampling and signal processing and anyone who understands them, will explain them the same way.

I notice you qualified your statement. There is of course a difference between lack of agreement and misunderstanding. For purpose of my argument it is sufficient that there is a difference of opinion among didgtal proponents regardless of the reason.

 

[Gregadd]

That was not the thesis in the video you posted.

Yeah I had the pleasure of veiwing a number of his videos.

I do believe it is a reasonable inference from his article ,"why 24/192 hi rez music doownlaods are silly indeed." He points to it in the first part of the video. If not he goes on to elaborate. It's a recurring theme for him.

 

[Gregadd]

I watched the video, and I thought it was excellent. Thank you for posting it.

Having said that, I am scratching my head as to your comment. First, the video is not relevant to this thread. There is no, as in zero, hyperbole contained in it. If you believe that somehow this elementary Sampling 101 summary, as accepted by knowledgable experts everywhere is somehow false, misleading claptrap, then what can I say? What is presented is not opinion. It is established fact.

Second, it says absolutely nothing controversial, unless one still wishes, in spite of the evidence presented before our eyes, to continue to believe in stair steps and other digital myths, which are distortions of fact and of reality.

Note that the video does not ever say or imply digital is perfect in every respect. There is much more to consider about digital reproduction than was presented in the video, excellent though it was.

In a thread where the superiority of digital to vinyl is touted as obvious a video demonstrating the lack of consensus among its' supporters is highly relevant .

 

[Ron Resnick]

You may prefer the sound of one of these systems as well. Until you hear what will be mainstream 10-15 years from now, it's hard to have an opinion on it.

Since I like tube electronics it is highly unlikely I will like the sound of microscopic-sized surface mount devices.

You are ignoring my point about the lack of introspection in your statement.

The problem is that you made the statement as a matter of fact. There are a number of assumptions embedded in your statement, each of which is merely your opinion.

 

[Blizzard]

Since I like tube electronics it is highly unlikely I will like the sound of microscopic-sized surface mount devices.

You are ignoring my point about the lack of introspection in your statement.

The problem is that you made the statement as a matter of fact. There are a number of assumptions embedded in your statement, each of which is merely your opinion.

We will see what the time comes. Anyways I'm no longer allowed to discuss technology on this thread, if it can potentially improve the listening enjoyment, and convenience for the average audiophile. So this will be my last post on the topic over here.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

In a thread where the superiority of digital to vinyl is touted as obvious a video demonstrating the lack of consensus among its' supporters is highly relevant .

But, there is absolutely no lack of consensus, in fact, no disagreement whatsoever among digital adherents about what was said in this particular video. It was basic Sampling Theory 101, well described. Of course, there is much more to digital audio than what was portrayed.

I am afraid that it is quite clear that either you did not watch it, or it went totally over your head, or you quite mistakenly thought it said something that it did not. There is absolutely no controversy here, except to the extent that it did not penetrate your skull.

BTW, it had nothing whatsoever to do with blizzard's embrace of HQPlayer and DSD, or a lot of other minor esoteric squabbles about digital audio, in case you were unable to get that.

 

[Gregadd]

I'm sick of this nonsesense.
How can you psossibly say there is no lack of consesnsus. He oprens the video talking of the firestone his comments generated. He then states he wants to quiet the dispute.
That is waht permeated my wooden skull.
I'm tired of trying to cure "digititis."
The floor is yours.

 

[amirm]

I'm sick of this nonsesense.
How can you psossibly say there is no lack of consesnsus. He oprens the video talking of the firestone his comments generated. He then states he wants to quiet the dispute.
That is waht permeated my wooden skull.
I'm tired of trying to cure "digititis."
The floor is yours.

Greg, we are commenting about this preface when you presented the video: "There is not even agreement among digital proponenets." Proponents of digital are in agreement. It is the opponents of digital which disagree and he sets out to show them to be incorrect in that video. As he shows in the credit, his video has been reviewed by others to be correct and it is time that we put aside myths like digital being stair steps. That's all.

 

[PeterA]

Greg, we are commenting about this preface when you presented the video: "There is not even agreement among digital proponenets." Proponents of digital are in agreement. It is the opponents of digital which disagree and he sets out to show them to be incorrect in that video. As he shows in the credit, his video has been reviewed by others to be correct and it is time that we put aside myths like digital being stair steps. That's all.

I have not yet watched the video, but I hope to soon. Amir, your comment, "proponents of digital are in agreement", is interesting. Are you talking about digital only guys or all proponents of digital. I know well two guys in my Boston area audio group who have both analog and digital. I don't think I would refer to Ian, MadFloyd, as a digital proponent, but he likes digital and he likes analog. He recently told me and wrote on the forum that he thinks digital may be "lossy". Al M. is a digital only guy, and a digital proponent, but he too hears the virtues of vinyl and thinks it can do some things better than digital can. So, when you write that proponents of digital are in agreement, what do you mean? Could you please explain if they are digital only guys and what they are in agreement of?

 

[Al M.]

Greg, we are commenting about this preface when you presented the video: "There is not even agreement among digital proponenets." Proponents of digital are in agreement. It is the opponents of digital which disagree and he sets out to show them to be incorrect in that video. As he shows in the credit, his video has been reviewed by others to be correct and it is time that we put aside myths like digital being stair steps. That's all.

Precisely. I am baffled when Greg is talking about "lack of consensus" among digital proponents. Digital opponents still reurgitate the stairstep and "loss of information" nonsense, digital proponents don't.

Great video by the way.