Invisible speakers?

[fas42]

OK, Frank...so it is too complex and variable to just list a set of magic tweaks. How about some examples of the kinds of things you've done to fine tune your systems and how/why they needed to be adjusted (re-tweaked?) when you moved?

Tim

I will state straight out that I haven't got the answer to everything. In some senses Vince appears to be ahead of me, because his system seemingly consistently performs well. I am still experimenting, and the whole setup is rather fragile at the moment, because I am still trying to find answers.

So, some more tricks, which, again, are already performed by many of the hard-core tweakers out there:

* If the system goes through a period, timewise, of sounding especially magical, grab onto that. That's telling you what the potential of the system is, and you need to to trap and understand what's going on at that point. As I mentioned before, sometimes a system gets to a peak of performance at a certain time after being turned on and used, and then slowly goes "off", sounds more and more dreary, digital is especially prone to that.
* Everyone knows that connections and switches are bad, but you have to be meticulous about that! I don't care if it is the connection or switch inside of a $200,000 amplier: if it is crappy, it will wreck the sound, and that $200,000 is a complete waste of money! I mean EVERY switch, what about the one that sets the impedance on a phono input, say?
* Guess what? Volume controls are switches too, just constantly variable ones. Check out the conversation on Audiogon at the moment about the Lightspeed Attenuator ...
* I just mentioned in a post about interference, from cellphones. Maybe it is relevant to you, maybe not.
* Every component could be susceptible to interference from electricals in the house, AND to the other components in the system. As a first step, turn your WHOLE house into a power spur for just the audio system, that is, switch off everything else in the house, and I mean everything, and pull every fuse and circuit breaker in the meter box, lights, hot water system, the works, except for the circuit supplying the system. What does that tell you, when you listen before and after?

Frank

 

[muralman1]

Amir, Thanks. That's truer than you may have meant it to be. I stuck with my amp and preamp made by my friend, because I believed they were going to do all I need them to do. It didn't hurt the amp builder has the same speakers as I.

 

[amirm]

Amir, Thanks. That's truer than you may have meant it to be. I stuck with my amp and preamp made by my friend, because I believed they were going to do all I need them to do. It didn't hurt the amp builder has the same speakers as I.

My comments are not directed at you. You have been specific in what went into your system, some of which triggered spirited discussions around types of DAC and such.

I am asking Frank to do the same.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I will state straight out that I haven't got the answer to everything. In some senses Vince appears to be ahead of me, because his system seemingly consistently performs well. I am still experimenting, and the whole setup is rather fragile at the moment, because I am still trying to find answers.

So, some more tricks, which, again, are already performed by many of the hard-core tweakers out there:

* If the system goes through a period, timewise, of sounding especially magical, grab onto that. That's telling you what the potential of the system is, and you need to to trap and understand what's going on at that point. As I mentioned before, sometimes a system gets to a peak of performance at a certain time after being turned on and used, and then slowly goes "off", sounds more and more dreary, digital is especially prone to that.
* Everyone knows that connections and switches are bad, but you have to be meticulous about that! I don't care if it is the connection or switch inside of a $200,000 amplier: if it is crappy, it will wreck the sound, and that $200,000 is a complete waste of money! I mean EVERY switch, what about the one that sets the impedance on a phono input, say?
* Guess what? Volume controls are switches too, just constantly variable ones. Check out the conversation on Audiogon at the moment about the Lightspeed Attenuator ...
* I just mentioned in a post about interference, from cellphones. Maybe it is relevant to you, maybe not.
* Every component could be susceptible to interference from electricals in the house, AND to the other components in the system. As a first step, turn your WHOLE house into a power spur for just the audio system, that is, switch off everything else in the house, and I mean everything, and pull every fuse and circuit breaker in the meter box, lights, hot water system, the works, except for the circuit supplying the system. What does that tell you, when you listen before and after?

Frank

Nine pages of mysterious allusions to the illusive, fleeting and magical, and all we end up with are quality components, stepped attenuators and clean power?

Tim

 

[fas42]

What weakness? And how do we know you fixed it

The doctor WAS right ...

EVERY system has weaknesses, even mine .... The weakness is that which generates extra distortion in the reproduction chain. You know you've fixed it because the distortion goes away, and your system sounds "nice" in the way I've been describing.

I'm very sorry, armin, I can't sell you the magic potion that will make your system instantly that much better. But, I'm sure there are plenty out there happy to charge you thousands of dollars for something they send through the mail to do that very thing. Check them out, instead ...

Sorry again,
Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I'm very sorry, armin, I can't sell you the magic potion that will make your system instantly that much better.

I don't think any of us are looking for a magic potion, Frank. But a bit of science, or engineering, or even simple, practical application would be useful.

Tim

 

[fas42]

Nine pages of mysterious allusions to the illusive, fleeting and magical, and all we end up with are quality components, stepped attenuators and clean power?

Holey moley, I am just going around in circles here, just like you lot ...

At the moment I am standing in the centre, and you are screaming at me: the MAGIC BULLET, the MAGIC BULLET, we want the MAGIC BULLET ...

And I am saying, I am sorry but there is no magic bullet. The magic comes if you clean and use the bullets absolutely correctly that you already have ...

And you're saying: ohh! I'm upset, I want my my magic bullet, and I will go away and cry, because Frank didn't give me the magic bullet ...

Sorry,
Frank

 

[MylesBAstor]

I don't think any of us are looking for a magic potion, Frank. But a bit of science, or engineering, or even simple, practical application would be useful.

Tim

+1

 

[fas42]

One thing: Yep, just listened to it (on another machine, the sound in my laptop's gone). (Just realised, how appropriate is that ...)

Except the the One Thing that everyone here wants is good sound, a fairly shared "thing" I would have thought ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Holey moley, I am just going around in circles here, just like you lot ...

At the moment I am standing in the centre, and you are screaming at me: the MAGIC BULLET, the MAGIC BULLET, we want the MAGIC BULLET ...

And I am saying, I am sorry but there is no magic bullet. The magic comes if you clean and use the bullets absolutely correctly that you already have ...

And you're saying: ohh! I'm upset, I want my my magic bullet, and I will go away and cry because Frank didn't give me the magic bullet ...

Sorry,
Frank

I think you missed the next post, Frank:

I don't think any of us are looking for a magic potion, Frank. But a bit of science, or engineering, or even simple, practical application would be useful.

Or barring that, substance.

Tim

 

[fas42]

Okay, I'll give you a bit of engineering ...

Chap's swimming pool is leaking. He calls an engineer in for some quick advice about what to do about it.

The engineer says, "Have you checked for leaks in the lining that need to be patched"

"I think so, but my pool is still leaking. I want you to help me to stop the water running away"

"Well, what you should do is go and inspect the pool carefully and find every leak and patch it"

"Hey, I've already fixed a number of leaks, see over there with that blue round one, and see over there; I'm really proud of that one -- it's got Teflon lining!"

"Yes, but have you checked the whole pool to find every leak"

"Hey, I shouldn't have to do that, I've fixed a whole lot of leaks in a really special way! That's all I should need to do!"

"Well, I don't what to say; what do you want me to do"

"Hey, you're an engineer! You can just tell me every place in the pool where there's a leak, and exactly how to patch it"

"Okay, you want me to be instantly able to assess where every leak is and tell you that right here and now, in very precise detail, at no cost whatsoever to you?"

"Yeah, of course, you're an engineer, aren't you??"



An addendum:

Pool owner: "Okay, if I pay you, or go to to some effort myself to find and patch other leaks, how will I know that I've got them all"

"Sighhhh ... the pool will stop leaking"

Frank

 

[fas42]

stepped attenuators

Little puzzle for everyone ...

There is a deliberate mistake here by Tim, first one to work it out MIGHT get a bottle of that red I've mentioned ...

Frank

 

[mep]

Let's keep this real simple Frank and see if you can answer this question. Please tell us all what you have done to your system besides keeping cell phones away from it. Let us know where you found all of those distortions hiding and how you fixed those distortions. Never mind trying to help anyone else with their system-just tell us what you did to yours. I think that is a simple request and surely you can answer it.

 

[amirm]

One pool owner tells the another pool owner that he has a pool that stays 100% clean with no filtration necessary. Neighbor asks how he did that. He answers that he found the weakness in his current pool circulation systems and fixed it. Neighbor asks how he managed to do that and how he can do the same. He tells him it is simple: "you just have to find out what is wrong with your pool system and fix it the same way!!!"

 

[fas42]

Just another thought: it's actually pretty easy to work out where the weaknesses are in a particular set of gear! I mean, it only took muralman1 6 years to do it ...

Frank

 

[MylesBAstor]

Okay, I'll give you a bit of engineering ...

Chap's swimming pool is leaking. He calls an engineer in for some quick advice about what to do about it.

The engineer says, "Have you checked for leaks in the lining that need to be patched"

"I think so, but my pool is still leaking. I want you to help me to stop the water running away"

"Well, what you should do is go and inspect the pool carefully and find every leak and patch it"

"Hey, I've already fixed a number of leaks already, see over there with that blue round one, and see over there; I'm really proud of that one -- it's got Teflon lining!"

"Yes, but have you checked the whole pool to find every leak"

"Hey, I shouldn't have to do that, I've fixed a whole lot of leaks in a really special way! That's all I should need to do!"

"Well, I don't what to say; what do you want me to do"

"Hey, you're an engineer! You can just tell me every place in the pool where there's a leak, and exactly how to patch it"

"Okay, you want me to be instantly able to assess where every leak is and tell you that right here and now, in very precise detail, at no cost whatsoever to you?"

"Yeah, of course, you're an engineer, aren't you??"



An addendum:

Pool owner: "Okay, if I pay you, or go to to some effort myself to find and patch other leaks, how will I know that I've got them all"

"Sighhhh ... the pool will stop leaking"

Frank

What if it was a cesspool? Nonsensical analogy.

 

[fas42]

Okay, let's see ...

I've fiddled with 4 CD setups, 4 amplifier setups, one of which is my own design, 5 sets of speakers.

I've tried hardwiring some things, silver pasted others, changed capacitors, added capacitors, added coils, changed how the power cords were arranged, kept a gun on hand to threaten anyone using a cellphone while listening.

Then again, I could write a little booklet detailing every little permutation and combination of things I've tried over the years in strict chronological order, some which may have worked, some may not, some may have made it worse ...

You see, this is still a moving target for me ... . My current system is a DVD HT all-in-one, that would be worth, saaay, $5 at a yard sale

What the ...????

That's right! Get back to basics and you really find out what's going on ...

Happy now?

Frank

 

[fas42]

One pool owner tells the another pool owner that he has a pool that stays 100% clean with no filtration necessary. Neighbor asks how he did that. He answers that he found the weakness in his current pool circulation systems and fixed it. Neighbor asks how he managed to do that and how he can do the same. He tells him it is simple: "you just have to find out what is wrong with your pool system and fix it the same way!!!"

Sorry, amirm, bad analogy, I'm afraid: I have never, never said that no filtration is necessary, to continue the analogy. A better analogy is that the neighbour is struggling to get better than 95% clean. The pool owner has found, by listening to yet another pool owner to use a particular brand of filter, and from another that it is a good idea to change the filter every 2 weeks, and from a third to vaccuum the pool regularly. He says to the neighbour, I have used what other people have done, but for some strange reason none of these others use all the tips, all at the same time!

Frank

 

[amirm]

Frank, you have two things you need to prove:

1. That perfect transparency can be achieved.

2. That you have achieved it.

You are right that we are trying to get better than 95% perfection. What is not clear is whether a) you have achieved it or b) whether it is achievable at all. For proof of those things, we have your statements. That's a good starting point but it can't be the ending points.

Analogies ultimately are not the same as the real thing. I can argue that it is impossible to achieve perfection in audio reproduction. For example, there is no way to know how the music was heard by the creating artist in the recording room. Whatever you are reproducing is liable to be very different tonally than what they heard when they mixed their music lest you want to tell me their pool was 100% clean . You have not presented any data that you are hearing what was there either live or recorded in the studio. If something has clicked in your room, it is unlikely to represent the truth since the truth cannot be known!

 

[fas42]

mep, a quick answer!

The distortions were hiding in bad connections, interference from other electrical gear, speakers wobbling around on carpet and stuff, and bad power supplies, amongst other things

I fixed them by soldering things together, moving the gear so that it was electrically as far away from other electricals as possible, put spikes and BluTak under speakers, and by adding more and better capacitors to power supplies.

I realise that this is very unusual and radical stuff, in fact, I think I might patent some of these ideas! What do you think ...

Sorry,
Frank