Is ABX finally Obsolete

[terryj]

Which hypotheses and how exactly would you propose to test them on me?

What is this Frank?

YOU started blathering about an experiment with a three way, and playing the mid with/without tweeters compared to the mid with/without woofers, and see what does a better job.

Correct?

So what is this rubbish about what hypotheses? I have told you I HAD done it, many times. Trivial for me to do in fact.

How? Set it up as you want when you want, you can formulate as you go, you can modify in the light of what you experience or not, your call on every single bit.

As you phrased it as 'or has it already been done?' I assumed that you yourself had not done it and further that you suspect it might be telling on some way.

Well, here is your chance, take it or leave it, does not matter to me. I do find it 'interesting' that your immediate tack is to change it around, that I somehow am issuing a challenge. I simply offered you a means you did not have before.

Can you not simply be straight Frank? why the weasling already?

By the way, be warned, I take no prisoners when I am asked to assess a system. I use really "bad", as in difficult recordings, and I turn the volume up to 11. This always makes it bloody obvious where setups fall to pieces, which is what I am really interested in, not listening to audiophile "swill" at polite volumes ...

Frank

Again, why the switch? Who said anything about assessing my system. I don't give a toss if i am honest about what your thoughts are on how an audio system should sound. I can tell you straight up your approach to audio and what is important could NOT be further than mine, so in that area your opinion is worthless to me.

I don't need to listen to yours. You don't need to like mine, but you can learn what you want to learn.

Volume 11 frank? With a HTIB. please, don't make me laugh.

So reduced to bare bones, even tho this latest wriggling from you is setting alarm bells shrieking, I am still offering you the chance to test YOUR theories in this area. I think you and your theories are bonkers, but it is for YOUR benefit, not mine.

Last offer Frank, am happy to have you come out and find out for yourself. Am happy to spend a day of my time going thru this with you, changing settings at your whim and as you learn about this area (obviously you know nothing yet, else it would not be a hypothetical for you).

Not interested in forum squirming tho, so any more of that and forget it.

Red pill or blue pill frank?

 

[fas42]

Sorry, terry, we're obviously moving down 2 completely different streams here, so probably best to just let it go ...

Frank

 

[DS-21]

By the way, the most significant thing for me in doing this sort of stuff is the realisation that it all matters. Play just the tweeter, and you WILL be surprised-depending on the crossover point-how 'little' there is in the treble. Once you do an experiment like that, it starts to put things into perspective. And very few do or have the means to do an experiment like that. One thing as a quick example, often people misattribute to the 'tweeter' what are mid problems. 5 k (as an example) is really high!! No, when people blame the tweeter, it is usually the mid IME.

My observations upon similar noodlings (a comment on how I derived my observations, not how you derived yours) are exactly the same.

That's why to me at least a good speaker starts with controlled, even midrange directivity and low diffraction. That is certainly not a sufficient condition, because the rest of the spectrum as well as subjective voicing choices matter, too. But it is a necessary condition. Directivity and diffraction are the two things that cannot really be fixed with EQ, be it the EQ inherent in any competently-designed passive crossover, or an active circuit. So they have to be properly done acoustically. A speaker with excesses of midrange energy (read: most "High End" speakers with 5.5"-7" mid woofers and flush-mounted tweeters) and/or one with a high-diffraction cabinet will not sound good no matter what else is done.

Down low, one can scale a multisub setup appropriate to one's LF cutoff and SPL desires. Up top, one has to accept some narrowing in the highs simply because all tweeters do. Even the Acapella plasma ion one!

(1) Both cars and audio systems are complex mechanisms,

Actually, except for the loudspeaker-room interface, audio systems are dead simple. They take an input signal, convert it to an electrical wave, possibly change the shape of that wave and/or divide it between drivers, and make that wave a bit higher in amplitude..

Any attempts to compare that to a car simply show a lack of understanding about how audio actually works.

 

[fas42]

Actually, except for the loudspeaker-room interface, audio systems are dead simple. They take an input signal, convert it to an electrical wave, possibly change the shape of that wave and/or divide it between drivers, and make that wave a bit higher in amplitude..

Any attempts to compare that to a car simply show a lack of understanding about how audio actually works.

I'm sorry, DS-21, I'll have to vigorously disagree with you. Depending on how precise a result you want, electronics can be very straightforward or an absolute nightmare to get right. It is trivial to make a black box that will produce sound, you can buy one in a supermarket for a few tens of dollars that allows you to recognise what the music is meant to be. However, if you want the music reproduction to be accurate, that involves a great deal of effort and focus. In the same way as a producing a refined performance vehicle requires a great deal of development. On the other hand, to follow the analogy, if you a want a car that makes an impressive racket, and has plenty of spectacular bits hanging off it, any teenager worth his salt should be able to knock one up for you ...

Frank

 

[DS-21]

I'm sorry, DS-21, I'll have to vigorously disagree with you.

That's fine. My position has actual evidence to support it (the results of controlled subjective listening tests dating back to 1983 or so) and yours simply does not have anything to back it except for sighted flights of fancy. I think we should leave things at that.

However, if you want the music reproduction to be accurate, that involves a great deal of effort and focus. In the same way as a producing a refined performance vehicle requires a great deal of development.

I agree with you, but that "effort and focus" should go where it actually matters, into the loudspeakers and the loudspeaker/room interaction. Otherwise, it is simply wasted. (I am here assuming that recordings are fixed, as I simply cannot fathom selecting recordings to enjoy based on sound quality rather than artistic merit. I love music, and consider audio merely the gateway to get it into my home.)

As for the electronics boxes (to say nothing of the primary profit centers in retail audio, the wires and such)...what's so special about a simple, low-bandwidth electrical signal that it requires any heroics?

On the other hand, to follow the analogy, if you a want a car that makes an impressive racket, and has plenty of spectacular bits hanging off it, any teenager worth his salt should be able to knock one up for you ...

I've yet to meet a teenager who could competently build a roadworthy car from component parts....

 

[JackD201]

What exactly is "simple" about a low bandwidth waveform carrying musical information?

 

[FrantzM]

What exactly is "simple" about a low bandwidth waveform carrying musical information?

In term of mathematical complexity, compared to an automobile, a stereo system is utterly simple... And to make it more complicated (pun intended), cars have music systems in them. Some surprisingly good (Mark Levinson in Lexus, Burmester in Porsche Panamera to name the two best I think I have heard)

 

[microstrip]

In term of mathematical complexity, compared to an automobile, a stereo system is utterly simple... And to make it more complicated (pun intended), cars have music systems in them. Some surprisingly good (Mark Levinson in Lexus, Burmester in Porsche Panamera to name the two best I think I have heard)

Can we assume that one of the next posts will be about the need to use ABX in DBT conditions for car tests?

 

[JackD201]

In term of mathematical complexity, compared to an automobile, a stereo system is utterly simple... And to make it more complicated (pun intended), cars have music systems in them. Some surprisingly good (Mark Levinson in Lexus, Burmester in Porsche Panamera to name the two best I think I have heard)

No debate there Frantz. DS-21 however makes it appear that reproducing a wave form accurately is easy. How many systems can even do a square wave perfectly? That's simple enough. Now try a signal whose voltage swings represent over a hundred playing musicians. It is a gross over simplification in my view and I would sure like to hear his explanation.

 

[fas42]

That's fine. My position has actual evidence to support it (the results of controlled subjective listening tests dating back to 1983 or so) and yours simply does not have anything to back it except for sighted flights of fancy. I think we should leave things at that.

I'm curious: the tests you talk of, are they personal ones or are you referring to published information?

As for the electronics boxes (to say nothing of the primary profit centers in retail audio, the wires and such)...what's so special about a simple, low-bandwidth electrical signal that it requires any heroics?

At least one thing amongst many concerns: how to prevent high frequency interference modulating that signal. If you haven't experienced these effects then I would assume you either have very high quality equipment or you have not listened closely enough to the sound. "Bad" recordings are excellent indicators of such, if some are unlistenable to then it is a giveaway of problems in the system.

I've yet to meet a teenager who could competently build a roadworthy car from component parts....

Cars are assembled from major modules of functionality, as are audio systems. I am not suggesting that people go to parts shops, rather combining and modifying these modules. In Australia there is an excellent touring car race series that takes family style vehicles, our Chevy and Ford, and turns them into thundering monsters that could whip most things out there. A teenager could try exactly the same thing, and of course they do, what we call hoonmobiles ...

I will really throw a cat amongst the pigeons now, and suggest that the better the electronics and wiring the less relevant the speaker is, the more one speaker will sound the same as the next. Conversely, the less well sorted out the electrical side, the more every tiny, tiny variation in speaker type, driver use, positioning in the room, acoustic treatment will scream at you. Sorry about that ...

Frank

 

[audioguy]

I will really throw a cat amongst the pigeons now, and suggest that the better the electronics and wiring the less relevant the speaker is, one speaker will sound the same as the next.
Frank

Surely, surely you jest.

So somehow a pair of Maggies can sound like the Wilson Alexandrias can sound like Magicos can sound like Avante Guard can sound like ......

Surely you jest. Surely

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Let's see, from Wikipedia:


I've emphasised the key element here: you would argue that it "unequivalent" and I would argue otherwise, on the basis that:

(1) Both cars and audio systems are complex mechanisms, capable of behaving in very complex ways depending upon the situation they are in: a car on a "bad" road, an audio system playing a "bad" recording
(2) It is very difficult for engineers and designers to precisely define and measure how their "baby" will behave in unusual situations, even just a particular combination that suits you, the potential user.
(3) In these respect the best thing the prospective buyer can do is take it for a whirl, try it out for an extended period, give it a hammering in the way that's meaningful to him, because it's the only way he will know whether it truly suits; no numbers he can easily access will allow him to put together a full parcel of the "facts" that he needs to make a satisfactory decision.

So, do we now need a DBT to determine whether in fact I presented a "straw man" or not, hmmm ...?

Frank

You're probably right that your absurd references to automobile mechanics and 70s Japanese hifi are not straw man arguments by the Wikipedia definition you sighted, but I wouldn't argue that they are "unequivalent" (sic), as you stated. I would argue that they were totally unrelated to the conversation in any rational way. They are not straw men. My apologies. Straw men would make more sense.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Surely, surely you jest.

So somehow a pair of Maggies can sound like the Wilson Alexandrias can sound like Magicos can sound like Avante Guard can sound like ......

Surely you jest. Surely

If you hard solder all the interconnects, unplug the microwaves from the household wiring, turn off the neighbor's cell phone and turn your fuses in the right direction, a HTIB will sound better than Magicos. It has little to do with the drivers, the crossovers, the cabinets, or the placement (placement is completely irrelevant, perform the above tweaks and it will image exactly the same from directly in front of one speakers as it does in the sweet spot, it will sound "live" and "natural" from around the corner and down the hall, where you're sitting on the can behind a closed door. And don't call him Shirley...

Tim

 

[fas42]

Surely, surely you jest.

So somehow a pair of Maggies can sound like the Wilson Alexandrias can sound like Magicos can sound like Avante Guard can sound like ......

Surely you jest. Surely

Actually, that was one of my earlier "discoveries" and even now I am quite intrigued by the phenomenon. Essentially what happens is that psychoacoustics takes over, the ear/brain doing its extra level of decoding: when the system is working at a very high level of performance, as a total entity, then the acoustic environment of the recording starts to completely take over the listening environment. There is a complete "wall of sound" or environment of sound being generated by the system and the impact of the frequency responses of the drivers, phase irregularities, refractions around the edge of the cabinet and room reflections become irrelevant from the point of view of the listening experience. The sort of thing that MBL systems revved up and in good shape do.

Of course, people would say that the unusual drivers that MBL uses are part of that "sound", and they certainly help to get it there. But the attention to detail in the MBL electronics are the vital element in making it happen: using normal electronics those speakers would sound quite hideous, and sometimes do, by all accounts, even using their own gear!

So part of my saying the electrics are crucial, is that the components other than the drivers in the speakers, the crossover bits and wiring has to be 100% correct for what I'm talking about to come about ...

Frank

 

[Gregadd]

No doubtt that building a basic amp is not a heroic efoort. The problem comes when you hook a speaker to it and play some music through it. On the other hand is rooom /speaker interaction diffcult? Or is it just that not eneough attention is paid to it?

 

[DS-21]

I'm curious: the tests you talk of, are they personal ones or are you referring to published information?

The 1983 date was not accidental. Anyone serious about audio will know the seminal article about subjective listening comparisons published in JAES that year.

Cars are assembled from major modules of functionality, as are audio systems.

Nope. There's a massive gulf between pure electrical systems (audio electronics) and sometimes electronically-controlled mechanical systems (most "modules of functionality" on a car). One cannot make such a comparison and expect to be taken seriously.

I will really throw a cat amongst the pigeons now, and suggest that the better the electronics and wiring the less relevant the speaker is, the more one speaker will sound the same as the next.

You can't hear the difference between pigeons and cats? That's all I got out of that sentence...

 

[fas42]

And don't call him Shirley...

Tim

Dammmn!!! Missed that one, 10 points for getting it, Tim ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

Nope. There's a massive gulf between pure electrical systems (audio electronics) and sometimes electronically-controlled mechanical systems (most "modules of functionality" on a car). One cannot make such a comparison and expect to be taken seriously.

From the point of view of someone who is trying to make electronics behave themselves to the extent of getting decent quality audio on command, and seeing that people wish to be extremely pedantic about the use of analogies, I will simply state that the level of complexity of understanding that one has to have to get good results is comparable between vehicles and audio. If that weren't so, then every other audio system should be brilliant in reproducing high quality sound, and seeing that that is not the case, a number of nuts and bolts holding together full understanding of what's required seem to have gone missing along the way ...

You can't hear the difference between pigeons and cats? That's all I got out of that sentence...

The phrase doesn't mean anything to you? In our part of the world it means getting everyone or everything in a situation agitated or disturbed about something done or said ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

No doubtt that building a basic amp is not a heroic efoort. The problem comes when you hook a speaker to it and play some music through it. On the other hand is rooom /speaker interaction diffcult? Or is it just that not eneough attention is paid to it?

My answer is that not enough attention is paid to getting the electronics right. And if you don't get things right at that stage then you have to try and sort out getting better sound by fiddling with the whole room/speaker interaction thing ...

Frank

 

[audioguy]

Actually, that was one of my earlier "discoveries" and even now I am quite intrigued by the phenomenon. Essentially what happens is that psychoacoustics takes over, the ear/brain doing its extra level of decoding: when the system is working at a very high level of performance, as a total entity, then the acoustic environment of the recording starts to completely take over the listening environment. There is a complete "wall of sound" or environment of sound being generated by the system and the impact of the frequency responses of the drivers, phase irregularities, refractions around the edge of the cabinet and room reflections become irrelevant from the point of view of the listening experience.

Frank

Have you stopped taking your meds?