Is ABX finally Obsolete

[Phelonious Ponk]

Actually, that was one of my earlier "discoveries" and even now I am quite intrigued by the phenomenon. Essentially what happens is that psychoacoustics takes over, the ear/brain doing its extra level of decoding: when the system is working at a very high level of performance, as a total entity, then the acoustic environment of the recording starts to completely take over the listening environment. There is a complete "wall of sound" or environment of sound being generated by the system and the impact of the frequency responses of the drivers, phase irregularities, refractions around the edge of the cabinet and room reflections become irrelevant from the point of view of the listening experience.

Frank

This psychoacoustic phenomenon is called enjoying the music. I experience it when listening to a great track on my lousy car stereo or my clock radio or the tiny little speakers in my laptop. You can call it "decoding" if you like. It is the brain remembering or imagining what the whole sounded like and filling in the gaps to allow us to experience the glory of the music instead of the limitations of the audio.

Variations of this phenomenon occur when listening to bad sound reinforcement at concerts, good systems in bad room acoustics, systems/components that have problems we "burn in" then no longer hear, etc. etc. This phenomenon can subtract what is wrong and add what is not there. In combination with our desire to hear things we think we should or we must hear, it can fill in very small specific blanks.

I suspect this phenomenon took over your "discoveries" much earlier than you imagine, Frank. I suspect it is the very foundation of your audio reality. Most audiophiles have "trained" themselves out of it, and as a result, they often listen to audio instead of music and hear the flaws stand out in front of the beauty. I believe you, Frank, have learned the opposite. You can change nothing of consequence and hear transformation. Your psychoacoustic construction of the music is unaffected by the quality of your system or even the laws of physics, You can pick up a HTIB at a garage sale, take it home, do a bit of ritualistic tweaking, and imagine it is utterly natural.

Congratulations.

Tim

 

[fas42]

This is old ground, Tim, so no point in responding to your assertions yet again. Unfortunately, I do have to say my "disease" is spreading, the friend I've mentioned on several occasions is developing quite bad symptons of late. He actually mentioned listening to old Rolling Stones material recently and was quite taken by how "smooth" the sound was. Further worrying signs: he is listening more and more to "bad" recordings, listening at higher sound levels, and discovering that he doesn't have to be quite so fussy about the infamous sweet spot. His wife, who doesn't quite share his passion for music, "complained" that now when she goes to another room in the house that she can't shut out the music, it penetrates her consciousness, in a good way, when she's trying to read.

Since this unsavoury infection has now started to occur to a quite respectable setup of audiophile approved brands, and not only my "rubbish", there are obviously grounds for concern. You may possibly feel it will soon be worthwhile organising a vigilante squad of other suitably disgusted audio cognoscenti to help stamp out this terrible new scourge ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

Have you stopped taking your meds?

I think most audio people at some relatively early point in their music listening activities experienced a powerful, immersive sound illusion which took their breath away. They then spend a great deal of time and money chasing after, and attempting to repeat that phenomenon on an ongoing basis, with varying levels of success by acquiring and building standard types of gear and systems. I am just perhaps a bit more fortunate than some in being bloody tenacious, and having enough knowledge, and skill in experimenting, so I keep on trying to track down the underlying causes for that quality of sound being possible ...

Frank

 

[Steve williams]

so I keep on trying to track down the underlying causes for that quality of sound being possible ...

It usually comes from having a good sound system

 

[fas42]

It usually comes from having a good sound system

Exactly. The trouble is, there are many grades of "good" systems, and only the higher ones are able to have that level of performance on tap on most occasions. And they are usually made up of expensive components: hearing a well sorted out MBL system at a show got me back into the game.

And many times a system that should perform well fails miserably, usually on your favoured test recording. So, for most people, or perhaps it is just me , it is not quite so simple ...

Frank

 

[Steve williams]

Frank

I have no idea what you are searching for but for me having read your posts you seem to be a guy listening to audio (as Tim suggested) rather than becoming engulfed in and enjoying the music.

IIRC, this thread is entitled "Is ABX finally Obsolete" and once again you have inflicted yourself into this thread only to derail the OP. Kindly stay on topic or start another thread. This is becoming old Frank

 

[DS-21]

No doubtt that building a basic amp is not a heroic efoort. The problem comes when you hook a speaker to it and play some music through it.

There is simply no reliable evidence available to support that proposition.

On the other hand is rooom /speaker interaction diffcult? Or is it just that not eneough attention is paid to it?

There are many things in room/speaker interaction that cannot be modeled or predicted in advance. They have to be measured/observed in situ. So in that respect, yes, it is considerably more difficult. And considerably more expensive to get right than a simple electronics box.

No debate there Frantz. DS-21 however makes it appear that reproducing a wave form accurately is easy.

It is. Well, "simple" is not fair, because there are lots of very smart people who did non-obvious things to get us where we are today and I do not wish to denigrate their contributions.

"Extremely well understood and almost universally implemented (except, perhaps in so-called High End Audio)" would be a more accurate description.

How many systems can even do a square wave perfectly?

Noting your scope shift from simple electronics boxes (digital sources, DACs, switchers, amps, signal processors) to entire systems, few. That is because few loudspeakers can reproduce a square wave. I know Danley's Synergy horns can. I think a Quad 63 might be able to.

That's simple enough.

What makes you so convinced that a single, contrived test signal such as a square wave is simpler (or more difficult) than actual music?

The simple fact of the matter is, to anyone who listens with her/his ears and not eyes or biases about components at different price levels, etc. if the electronics are so poorly specified to drive a given loudspeaker complement in a room of a given size that changing one out makes a sonic difference for reasons other than variances in frequency response, noise floor, etc., then one of the three conditions below holds:
(a) the box in question is designed as a signal processor (EQ, crossover, reverb, delay etc.);
(b) the maker of one of the electronics boxes (the one newly added, or the one it replaced) is either broken or poorly designed;
(c) the system designer is simply incompetent. See also "audiophile."

 

[Gregadd]

Okay noiw I get it. The term "audiophools" should have tipped me off.

See http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?1600-What-to-look-for-in-a-power-amp

 

[JackD201]

I agree with you, but that "effort and focus" should go where it actually matters, into the loudspeakers and the loudspeaker/room interaction. Otherwise, it is simply wasted. (I am here assuming that recordings are fixed, as I simply cannot fathom selecting recordings to enjoy based on sound quality rather than artistic merit. I love music, and consider audio merely the gateway to get it into my home.)

As for the electronics boxes (to say nothing of the primary profit centers in retail audio, the wires and such)...what's so special about a simple, low-bandwidth electrical signal that it requires any heroics?

DS-21

You were the one that said replicating a low bandwidth signal accurately via your rhetorical question above. Now you answer a question with another question then sidestep to audibility. Sure what we hear is ultimately the final transducer in the chain coupled with its environment but are you suggesting that every intermediary step prior to that should be given any less importance? So one of Tom's speakers or one of Walker's would not benefit from amplification with better performance?

Fine then. Define what you mean by "Competently designed and built" and I'll get out of your hair. Without parameters it's just as nebulous as the dreaded term "Musical". You have the floor.

 

[fas42]

IIRC, this thread is entitled "Is ABX finally Obsolete" and once again you have inflicted yourself into this thread only to derail the OP. Kindly stay on topic or start another thread. This is becoming old Frank

Sorry about that ...

Except that the debate now appears more about the level of competence of equipment and the area where attention should be focussed in system setup. As regards ABX, I would again emphasise that an essential ingredient for me, that barely seems to cause a ripple in such discussions, is how interested and involved the people are in the process, that are doing such a test. If that is not taken into consideration then I for one would consider the results of such a "test" as just a bit of paper junk ...

Frank

 

[terryj]

I mean I have suspected it for quite a while, and possibly not alone, but I can now state with a great degree of conviction what I reckon the user name stands for.

FullAShit 42.

One constant cop out after another Frank. So all you can do is troll the forum constantly.

Sorry, terry, we're obviously moving down 2 completely different streams here, so probably best to just let it go ...

Frank

Is that an agreement frank? IF I let it go, let go the (futile) offer to allow you to test your hairbrained theories (ones you raise on the fly in some pathetic attempt to deny any sort of blind testing as valuable...which coincidentally means you do not have to test your hairbrained theories) then you agree to spare all of us from here on out any more of your rubbish?

Then I agree without the slightest hesitation.

(my inbox is nearly full, so please just all of you thank me silently in your head, I WILL pick up the vibes, and yes, thanks for all your kind wishes and notes of appreciation, I do my best to help)

I will really throw a cat amongst the pigeons now, and suggest that the better the electronics and wiring the less relevant the speaker is, the more one speaker will sound the same as the next. Conversely, the less well sorted out the electrical side, the more every tiny, tiny variation in speaker type, driver use, positioning in the room, acoustic treatment will scream at you. Sorry about that ...

Frank

Measured those system killer HTIAB speakers for us yet frank?

 

[fas42]

That post is slightly off topic, I would have thought, terry ...

By the way, having listened to a set of your speakers in your workspace, I am aware what your standard of "good sound" is. Suffice it to say that I have heard somewhat better over the years ...

Frank

 

[JackD201]

You guys from NSW don't pull any punches!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I mean I have suspected it for quite a while, and possibly not alone, but I can now state with a great degree of conviction what I reckon the user name stands for.

FullAShit 42.

One constant cop out after another Frank. So all you can do is troll the forum constantly.




Is that an agreement frank? IF I let it go, let go the (futile) offer to allow you to test your hairbrained theories (ones you raise on the fly in some pathetic attempt to deny any sort of blind testing as valuable...which coincidentally means you do not have to test your hairbrained theories) then you agree to spare all of us from here on out any more of your rubbish?

Then I agree without the slightest hesitation.

(my inbox is nearly full, so please just all of you thank me silently in your head, I WILL pick up the vibes, and yes, thanks for all your kind wishes and notes of appreciation, I do my best to help)



Measured those system killer HTIAB speakers for us yet frank?

Empty your mailbox, brother, empty your mailbox.

Tim

 

[fas42]

You guys from NSW don't pull any punches!

True, it's the nature of the land. Check out the film "Wake in Fright", and D.H.Lawrence's "Kangaroo" ...

Frank

 

[terryj]

That post is slightly off topic, I would have thought, terry ...

In what way?

Once again, a direct reference to a statement from you (as was the offer for you to test your ''''''theories''''') and it is off topic?

No, the squirming is coming from you frank.

By the way, having listened to a set of your speakers in your workspace, I am aware what your standard of "good sound" is. Suffice it to say that I have heard somewhat better over the years ...

Frank

Again, my workspace? WTF are you talking about. I have repeatedly asked you to provide 'some evidence' for your claim we have met.

Now you claim to have heard 'my speakers/my system'? Crap, as are all your posts. I invited you out, you scurried away as usual. (who is off topic now frank?)

I can TELL you, neither you (nor anybody else) has EVER heard my speakers/system anywhere other than in my room.

You are full of it frank.

(for YOU Tim, I will clear space in my inbox haha)

Jack, just the nature of the beast perhaps. What might 'blow your mind' more is that given that nature, it is also highly probable that it increases the possibility that we would get on like a house on fire.

If a guy can take it, then all is good. If not....

That possibility would only be answered if frank came out...he is (so far) 'taking it', but that credibility is diminishing the more the bullshit flows. A lot of this is instinctual, in a very australian way! Outsiders don't grasp it perhaps, and as it is instinctual it is also hard to explain, it just 'is'.

 

[JackD201]

OT

It's just so new to me. In our culture talk like that leads to butterfly knives

 

[fas42]

Again, my workspace? WTF are you talking about. I have repeatedly asked you to provide 'some evidence' for your claim we have met.

Now you claim to have heard 'my speakers/my system'? Crap, as are all your posts. I invited you out, you scurried away as usual. (who is off topic now frank?)

We need to sort out whether there are 2 Terrys in Bathurst who build their own speakers, and have the same attitude towards speakers, CD players and amps, etc, etc. Did you or did you not at one stage have a whole heap of stuff in a big shed on an industrial area in Bathurst, with a huge "FIIK" on the inside, on the wall? With an old car parked permanently outside?

Frank

 

[terryj]

We need to sort out whether there are 2 Terrys in Bathurst who build their own speakers, and have the same attitude towards speakers, CD players and amps, etc, etc. Did you or did you not at one stage have a whole heap of stuff in a big shed on an industrial area in Bathurst, with a huge "FIIK" on the inside, on the wall? With an old car parked permanently outside?

Frank

No I didn't, but I do know someone who did. I used to help HIM, in HIS factory.

That was one of the 'maybe's' I had in mind when you first spoke of it. We could have met, I was waiting for more data.

In any case, you would NOT have heard any system I had built in any place other than my room. I too have never heard my system in any other place than my room. That is why I am confident on that matter.

This other guy was in the business of building speakers, so WHICH speaker/system did you hear that was terrible?

In any case yes, his speakers were designed to the same standard (or 'for' if you prefer), accurate FR albeit usually passively, depending on the customer requirement.

That it is not your cup of tea is not in question, and I have no problem with what you like or dislike, it is entirely your preference. That you feel a HTIAB is superior tells any reader many things (according to the reader) and a lot can be gleaned about your tastes.

NONE of which changes the fact that whether or not you like my system (and I don't give a toss) I offered you an opportunity to test your own theories.

Like a lot of internet blowhards you backed away quickly when called.

Any chance of YOU giving enough clues for me to place you? Or do you wish to remain anonymous.

 

[terryj]

OT

It's just so new to me. In our culture talk like that leads to butterfly knives

haha, actually this sort of talk is mandatory between friends here. It has this other purpose I have outlined, to weed the wankers from the true blue.

The first step in that is this talk, but sooner or later to avoid the wanker tag (urm, trust me, you don't want the wanker tag over here) you have to put your money where your mouth is.