Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[hopkins]

Here is a thought to ponder. Do people who watch sports enjoy it more on a quality TV?

I watch boxing and tennis live and on TV (mostly TV). In both cases, it is a completly different experience. TV provides better angles,
and replay (and slow motion), which are valuable. But you do not get an appreciation of speed and impact (or finesse).

One of my fondest memories in tennis was watching John McEnroe vs. Ivan Lendl at the French open in 1984. McEnroe's "touch" is unparalleled and you simply cannot grasp it fully on TV.

 

[bonzo75]

Here is a thought to ponder. Do people who watch sports enjoy it more on a quality TV?

Both sports and David Attenborough type wildlife programmes look better on plasma TV natural colours, definitely worth the premium if you are into that sort of thing. I also think high quality cinema type system is worth it for those into movies/TV shows. It is just that 95% audio is crap, that’s the truth, and people judging it are not into music or understanding sound. It’s an anomaly

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Both sports and David Attenborough type wildlife programmes look better on plasma TV natural colours,

Samsung QLED 8K nature video's are not to be scoffed at. all those pixels add so much light. love nature programming. one of my guilty pleasures. but the video's are very limited in availability.

i had a Fujitsu Plasma 50" monitor in my family room when you first visited me. it did have amazing colors but only 720P. but it was a dead end TV technology and was a monitor only so very limited in the smart TV era. later i upgraded it to a Samsung 4K smart TV to get a better user interface for more sources. that TV is not used much in any case.

for spectacular my Home Theater 10 foot wide 2:35-1 screen 4K laser projector rules. nature programs (or 3D) on that are breathtaking.

I also think high quality cinema type system is worth it for those into movies/TV shows. It is just that 95% audio is crap, that’s the truth, and people judging it are not into music or understanding sound. It’s an anomaly.

horses for courses. but sometimes the sound surprises especially with embedded Dolby Atmos. but you can't bring a critical ear to it. take it for what it is....a construct.

 

[hopkins]

Both sports and David Attenborough type wildlife programmes look better on plasma TV natural colours, definitely worth the premium if you are into that sort of thing. I also think high quality cinema type system is worth it for those into movies/TV shows. It is just that 95% audio is crap, that’s the truth, and people judging it are not into music or understanding sound. It’s an anomaly

Yes, there used to be a tradeoff between high definition and size, and prices have gone down significantly, so everyone is better off. With audio, costs have gone down as well - for the price of a boombox in the early 80s you can now get a full system, but music consumption, and as a result production has changed. We grew up listening to music on the radio, or records at home. I remember when the walkman came out, that was not really a step towards better quality. Yet this is what kids wanted. Today, the same trend continues, with bluetooth earbuds which are selling like hot cakes. People wear them all the time - in the street, at work. They are quite discrete and convenient - no more cables, they operate seamlessly with your phone, etc...They come home and spend their time on their phones...no longer read, etc. At best, they may buy a bluetooth speaker for their living room, once again for the convenience. You go to a concert and everyone is filming the stage with their phones - looking at their phones, not at the performance. It's crazy.

This is the mass market where all the investments are going.

This is a trend, but there are of course still many people curious to experience things differently. Perhaps not as many people are taking the first step into audio as before? Hard to say without any actual data.

 

[DaveC]

@Kingrex - I guess we are different. I am way more emotionally attached and drawn into the sound now than ever before, even on new songs I have never heard before. I owe this to my system's performance and not a distant or recent memory.

Tom

Music is emotionally evocative even if it's not tied to a memory due to how the scales, rhythms, etc. interact with our nervous system. Smell otoh is absolutely tied to past experience to the degree if you smell something unfamiliar your brain will go back through time and find the closest thing it's encountered in the past and then tell you that's what the smell is. No doubt certain songs can be evocative but music is not tied to memory in the same way scent is. The science and psychology of how we interpret sensory input is very interesting, and key to understanding what a good audio system really is, or what makes for good incense or perfume. I think we discount psychoacoustics far too much, to the detriment of our own system's performance and our own satisfaction with it. After all, the whole point is to achieve suspension of disbelief, yet we seem to disregard exactly what provides this. I think Harman was half-right in their preference testing, and the folks who try to make their systems sound like their own experiences of live music is also half right. Like most everything in the world, the best results come from a balanced approach.

 

[Rexp]

Yes. We way over analyze. If someone says they have reference tracks, that sort of says to me, your listening to the stereo to tune it. Or people who say they only listen to the higbest quality recordings. Do they like the music on the best recordings? Are they not playing music they enoy that was recorded poorly.

Who was it who brought up music critics. I don't know any or anything about them. But I do run into more people into Music, than Audiophiles. Non have what we would call a high quality stereo. Every one of them can share a deep rich knowledge of the artist, who is great at what and why they feel that way. I don't believe enjoyment of music needs a high end stereo. It may be the opposite. Some people may need a high end stereo to enjoy music. But they are the minority.

I am not saying there is anything at all wrong with having a high quality stereo and enjoying what it can do. I very much like mine. It kicks butt. It just needs a swarm of subs.

I have played my 15 ips tape of tchaikovsky piano concerto 1 about 10 times in the last 2 weeks. As well as 5 or 6 digitql versions. I do marvel at how much better the tape is. Buy I'm also surprused how varied the pianist inerpretation is is. And every time I listen I develop a deeper appreciation for what a masterpiece the music is. And the skill it takes to play it. And it is in those moments I am most deeply engrosed in listening to the pianist hitting the notes itself that I am the most mentally and emotionally connected to the piece. Not when I'm thinking, I need more bass reinforcement or I can't hear where every bassoon player is seated or the mallet hitting the timpani. Those are added bonus I look for when Im listening to my stereo, not the music.

Sounds like you're more emotionally engaged when playing the tape, that is a high-end audio experience and well worth it, don't ya think? If you substituted mid-fi amp and speakers or a poor recording, you'd be less engaged.

 

[Lee]

try to keep things in perspective. but it can mess with your mind for sure. the biggest gains i've made in my system development were hearing things in other systems i was not quite getting in mine. went back and worked on it.

for sure you have to have a musical enjoyment quotient high enough to keep your passion switched on to full through the system development process. you have to embrace the journey. i loved listening to my reference tracks in my process. i never hurried. it was all good.

it's not for everyone. if your dark side rears it's head too easily then the pursuit might not be worth it.

find a trigger to get to that mind space and then embrace the journey.

Similar thing for me recently. I finally had a good listen to Miguel Alvarez TriPoint grounding system at the Florida show. Crazy low noise floor. Crazy good sound.

I came home and set about studying my more humble grounding system in more detail and talked to the manufacturer who made some suggestions. Got a nice bump in sound. All this noise chasing is paying huge performance dividends.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Similar thing for me recently. I finally had a good listen to Miguel Alvarez TriPoint grounding system at the Florida show. Crazy lowb noise floor. Crazy good sound.

I came home and set about studying my more humble gtounding system in more detail and talked to the manufacturer who made some suggestions. Got a nice bump in sound. All this noise chasing is paying huge performance dividends.

Videos please .
All "scientific' " breakthroughs lol require some additional evidence dont you think .

I ve requested now 3 times some additional video proof , never got anyting why not.

 

[bonzo75]

Videos please .
All "scientific' " breakthroughs lol require some additional evidence dont you think .

I ve requested now 3 times some additional video proof , never got anyting why not.

MrTripoint1

Share your videos with friends, family, and the world

youtube.com

 

[Elliot G.]

Yes, there used to be a tradeoff between high definition and size, and prices have gone down significantly, so everyone is better off. With audio, costs have gone down as well - for the price of a boombox in the early 80s you can now get a full system, but music consumption, and as a result production has changed. We grew up listening to music on the radio, or records at home. I remember when the walkman came out, that was not really a step towards better quality. Yet this is what kids wanted. Today, the same trend continues, with bluetooth earbuds which are selling like hot cakes. People wear them all the time - in the street, at work. They are quite discrete and convenient - no more cables, they operate seamlessly with your phone, etc...They come home and spend their time on their phones...no longer read, etc. At best, they may buy a bluetooth speaker for their living room, once again for the convenience. You go to a concert and everyone is filming the stage with their phones - looking at their phones, not at the performance. It's crazy.

This is the mass market where all the investments are going.

This is a trend, but there are of course still many people curious to experience things differently. Perhaps not as many people are taking the first step into audio as before? Hard to say without any actual data.

I agree with your thoughts and feel very strongly that the High End Audio Industry has not only completely missed the bus but don't have a clue what a bus is. Better Audio ( just a term not a statement) is an experience and without experiencing it there is very little interest or desire to have it. I think that most people get into something through experiencing it somehow and for a variety of reasons. The marketing monsters revived a dead business ( headphones) made them small and work with a new tech , the cell phone and related toys , and sold them bigtime to the youth of the world. They did this with appeals to celebrities and athletes and made it cool. These same guys made a gigantic fortune by using a lot of money combined with serious advertising and big time stars. Beats was sold for 2 Billion dollars!
The audio Industry didn't have this vision and didn't have the funds to do it so instead they did the same thing over and over expecting different results. This course started IMO the race of more and more expensive as a way to try to differentiate itself and themselves.
We have started a new industry one I call Audio Tourism. Audio Tourism is having a show every month and trying to make it seem like its important. Instead of IMO upgrading the experience with great sound and that shows off the differences they chose lousy hotel rooms packed with at best slightly above average sound. The Industry has abandoned making and promoting entry level quality products and making them interesting to younger people who like music. They truly are clueless how to reach new markets and new enthusiasts.
I have done a lot of shows and there is very little age diversity at these events. The overwhelming number of attendees look like me. There are few under 40 0r 30, there are very few women and almost none without their husbands or boyfriends and probably only there because they are being polite .
Audio hasn't really discovered any tech outside itself. TV? Cable? Streaming? almost nothing. Curious that there is a direct connection to the people that may have interest and yet nothing but resistance and a total lack of investment to grow their names.
Yes there are some minor exceptions that mostly market to the same people that will read this forum. Again what truly does that do?
Lower prices come from volume and scale there is none in audio that's why this OG even started .

 

[Kingrex]

Sounds like you're more emotionally engaged when playing the tape, that is a high-end audio experience and well worth it, don't ya think? If you substituted mid-fi amp and speakers or a poor recording, you'd be less engaged.

Actually, I turned on my system a couple times yesterday and found two new bands I had not heard. I was really enjoying the music. Great session. All digital.

It's definitely about the music for me. If I'm not into the music, I will walk out of the club or hall where they are playing. Same with a stereo. If I'm not into it, I will turn it off.

 

[xgr3d]

Nothing is worth money... only life and soul, above and below — and to those who ask 'what?', I answer 'where'.

 

[microstrip]

(...) The Industry has abandoned making and promoting entry level quality products and making them interesting to younger people who like music. They truly are clueless how to reach new markets and new enthusiasts.
I have done a lot of shows and there is very little age diversity at these events. The overwhelming number of attendees look like me. There are few under 40 0r 30, there are very few women and almost none without their husbands or boyfriends and probably only there because they are being polite . (...)

I can't speak for the US , but it is not the situation in my country, and as far as I told by distributors and manufacturers, in Europe. Shows have a good attendance of the younger generation, and entry level quality products of good brands like Primaluna, Sonus Faber, Focal, EAT or Wharfedale, for example, sell in large quantities.

Our distributor of Wilson, Magico, dCS and other very expensive brands makes regular sessions of music showing this equipment, but they mostly promote the sales of the more accessible brands and attack new clients.

I could not confirm the source of this information, take it with many grains of salt, but we must consider the high-end market is changing fast:

Asia 30–35% Fastest growth, especially China
North America 25–30% Aging market, but strong tradition
Europe 20–25% Strong domestic markets
Middle East/India 5–10% Niche luxury segments
Latin America/Africa 2–5% Very limited reach

 

[Elliot G.]

I can't speak for the US , but it is not the situation in my country, and as far as I told by distributors and manufacturers, in Europe. Shows have a good attendance of the younger generation, and entry level quality products of good brands like Primaluna, Sonus Faber, Focal, EAT or Wharfedale, for example, sell in large quantities.

Our distributor of Wilson, Magico, dCS and other very expensive brands makes regular sessions of music showing this equipment, but they mostly promote the sales of the more accessible brands and attack new clients.

I could not confirm the source of this information, take it with many grains of salt, but we must consider the high-end market is changing fast:

Asia 30–35% Fastest growth, especially China
North America 25–30% Aging market, but strong tradition
Europe 20–25% Strong domestic markets
Middle East/India 5–10% Niche luxury segments
Latin America/Africa 2–5% Very limited reach

I don't live in Europe so I have no information other than what I see at Munich and the few companies that I do business with there. The situation here is very complex however the audio portion of the Industry has done virtually nothing. It kneeled down and gave the business to the home theater and custom companies which mostly don't care about audio, don't know about audio and most have no showrooms or demos. This leads to people buying audio as a line item on a proposal. Everything became a home theater like Sonos etc. These clients were never experienced, never exposed and therefore removed from the marketplace and in most cases forever.

Do you have lots of dealers in your area? Do you have these custom types?

 

[microstrip]

I don't live in Europe so I have no information other than what I see at Munich and the few companies that I do business with there. The situation here is very complex however the audio portion of the Industry has done virtually nothing. It kneeled down and gave the business to the home theater and custom companies which mostly don't care about audio, don't know about audio and most have no showrooms or demos. This leads to people buying audio as a line item on a proposal. Everything became a home theater like Sonos etc. These clients were never experienced, never exposed and therefore removed from the marketplace and in most cases forever.

Do you have lots of dealers in your area? Do you have these custom types?

Well, we have just a few in the country with good demos conditions, in fact in the two larger towns. But it is not a large country, enthusiasts can easily travel. Surely less dealers than thirty years ago. Ten - fifteen years ago there was a noticeable move towards home theater, but most of these people tired of seeing movies and returned to stereo.

 

[Elliot G.]

Well, we have just a few in the country with good demos conditions, in fact in the two larger towns. But it is not a large country, enthusiasts can easily travel. Surely less dealers than thirty years ago. Ten - fifteen years ago there was a noticeable move towards home theater, but most of these people tired of seeing movies and returned to stereo.

That is not the same as here. The amount of dealers /outlets/ mail order/internet has exploded over the last 20 years. I don't know the true numbers but its hundreds here. I would bet that there are over 100 outlets in Florida alone.
FYI I just did a dealer search for B&W for example and there are 25 outlets within 100 miles!!! Im sure they are all SUPERB and qualified LOL

 

[hopkins]

Back in the days when high end audio did not exist:



A single speaker is so much easier to listen to!

Did people even complain about sound quality back then? I wonder...

 

[marty]

We have started a new industry one I call Audio Tourism. Audio Tourism is having a show every month and trying to make it seem like its important. Instead of IMO upgrading the experience with great sound and that shows off the differences they chose lousy hotel rooms packed with at best slightly above average sound. The Industry has abandoned making and promoting entry level quality products and making them interesting to younger people who like music. They truly are clueless how to reach new markets and new enthusiasts.

A very perceptive comment Elliot! It's sort of like window shopping in the Red Light District in Amsterdam, only far more expensive if you want to make a purchase.

 

[Elliot G.]

A very perceptive comment Elliot! It's sort of like window shopping in the Red Light District in Amsterdam, only far more expensive if you want to make a purchase.

You've been to the shows you certainly understand what I mean. The sound is ok and nothing special. I think that just isn't enough and the promotion to potential new clients is very poor IMO. Its Audio Tourism as I said.

 

[marty]

Because I had a high net worth and substantial income. I also bought a Porsche and Mercedes. I bought a fishing boat. I have maybe 50 rods and 20 reels. Most are going to have a name like Lamiglas or GL Loomis. Or I made it myself from custom blanks I procure from select boutique manufacturer. I am a hobbyist that gets into buying fancy stuff. I am a typical American consumer with money in my pocket. We had no kids so I spent the money on myself. We also have over 30 original art pieces from NW artist. We bought 2 more in the last month and have no place to put them or store them.
I always had a stereo as a youngster. When I got older and the money started to flow, I asked my wife if it was ok to spend $10K to get a stereo. She said ok, and so it began. Now she says no more. But that's a different story. We have a house to remodel. And she is not backing down on the appliances and cabinets she wants. They put the expense of my stereo to shame.

This is a very interesting subject, and perhaps related to the OP but might also benefit from a separate thread. The desire to improve one's home audio reproduction is part of the life-long hobby of an audiophile. But how that interfaces with resources in one's life is another matter. My personal experience may seem a bit paradoxical but if I had to graph it, it would look something like this:


The obvious explanation for the left hand side of the graph, in which there is a clear disparity between the desire to improve one's system and resources. It's why, for most of my audiophile life I was a DIY'er and re-builder of almost everything, hoping to achieve champagne-like results on a beer budget. The right side however is a different story and is probably driven by the realization that improving one's audio gear and/or room is kind of the equivalent of trying to exit a room by getting half way closer to the door with each step, but knowing that in the end, you can never leave the room using that method. Home audio reproduction is wonderful, enjoyable, important, essential, life-affirming and blah blah blah, but it ain't live music. Thus, part of my brain eternally screams "keep trying, you'll get there" and part of my brain says "stop trying you fool, that isn't ever going to happen" so just get over it and enjoy what you have and banish audio nervosa for good. Hah! Easier said than done, but it does explain the rationale behind the graph. It is indeed possible for stupidity and wisdom to co-exist when you're an audiophile!