Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[Kingrex]

Along the whole line of worth it. Look at Decware and Schiit. They have strong loyal followings. Same for First Watt. Although Nelson's latest model 5 is escalating in price.

Or........ that hobbysist and his DIY speaker in turn becomes something a dealer network can sell. Gawd, are audio dealerships becoming more and more like art galleries?

Along the lines of art, I would say yes. Amps and preamps are a lot of pretty metal. The finish on speakers have to be flawless. How much value is in the drivers and crossover of a $20k speaker. How much is in the flawless finished cabinet. Its art.

So a hobbiest is putting Dayton drivers in a very damped and braced box, using multiple amps with a analog active crossover to control it. It seems a no brainer its going to play very well.

If you were to get a BACCH with ORC and set that home made speaker in a room, powered with a pair of verticality biamped Odyssey amps, controlled by the BACCH, you could be approaching fantastic sound far excesing most systems. No dealer setup required. BACCH $8k, amps $7k, speakers $1200 and time. 15K isn't chump change. But I bet it would blow away most much more expensive systems.

 

[Elliot G.]

Along the whole line of worth it. Look at Decware and Schiit. They have strong loyal followings. Same for First Watt. Although Nelson's latest model 5 is escalating in price.


Along the lines of art, I would say yes. Amps and preamps are a lot of pretty metal. The finish on speakers have to be flawless. How much value is in the drivers and crossover of a $20k speaker. How much is in the flawless finished cabinet. Its art.

So a hobbiest is putting Dayton drivers in a very damped and braced box, using multiple amps with a analog active crossover to control it. It seems a no brainer its going to play very well.

If you were to get a BACCH with ORC and set that home made speaker in a room, powered with a pair of verticality biamped Odyssey amps, controlled by the BACCH, you could be approaching fantastic sound far excesing most systems. No dealer setup required. BACCH $8k, amps $7k, speakers $1200 and time. 15K isn't chump change. But I bet it would blow away most much more expensive systems.

You don't seem to get what a high end product is. High End is not DIY. High end is not poorly finished. High end is not a plain ugly box. High End is not something called ____t. BTW using an EQ only controls part of the signal ( amplitude)and only at a single place. I hate to say this but you seem to only want to find a short cut but not do the work. Everyone has an opinion however all of those opinions are not correct
I have been in this Industry for over 50 years. My clients have complained about every little thing possible over that time. Why isn't it finished better? why is the packing crappy? Why doesn't it do this or that? Why can't I get it in another finish? etc. etc.
You can't have it both ways. If you want products that have all of these things that High End clients want then there is a price to pay. Are all the products that cost a lot worth the money? I agree that they are not. There are a lot of high priced products that do not IMO meet all the criteria to be priced as they are but that is for the markets to determine.

Audio follows certain facts and science that can't be avoided. The room and the set up in the room is at least as important if not more than the gear. Sorry I am not supposed to tell this secret to anyone but I just can't hold it in any longer

 

[Atmasphere]

Happy not to be a bass junkie and it saves a lot of problems.

Something to think about is how the ear has a built-in tone control. If treble is missing the system will sound bass heavy. If bass is missing the system will seem to emphasize the highs. By getting the bass right, the system will seem more relaxed.

The current iteration is selling for 10 times that with "minor changes" that required very little in terms of tooling.

Actually the newer SL1200s are entirely different inside. No idea why they made them look the same; that seems to take away from what they did with the new design.

 

[Kingrex]

You don't seem to get what a high end product is. High End is not DIY. High end is not poorly finished. High end is not a plain ugly box. High End is not something called ____t. BTW using an EQ only controls part of the signal ( amplitude)and only at a single place. I hate to say this but you seem to only want to find a short cut but not do the work. Everyone has an opinion however all of those opinions are not correct
I have been in this Industry for over 50 years. My clients have complained about every little thing possible over that time. Why isn't it finished better? why is the packing crappy? Why doesn't it do this or that? Why can't I get it in another finish? etc. etc.
You can't have it both ways. If you want products that have all of these things that High End clients want then there is a price to pay. Are all the products that cost a lot worth the money? I agree that they are not. There are a lot of high priced products that do not IMO meet all the criteria to be priced as they are but that is for the markets to determine.

Audio follows certain facts and science that can't be avoided. The room and the set up in the room is at least as important if not more than the gear. Sorry I am not supposed to tell this secret to anyone but I just can't hold it in any longer

You can stop yelling. The premise of the question is high end worth it. Not some support of high end. If you have the money, by all means spend it. But pretty boxes don't necessarily get quality sound. Schiit and Decware set up properly could get better sound than expensive boxes with a shiny finish. As you have stated, audiophile are not trained to set up audio gear. So thinking spending money is getting you better sound is flawed. You may end up with ultra clear sound that is fatiguing, and you want to turn it off. Where a simple Decware system set up right, or a system utilizing BACCH can yield extremely satisfying music. If your goal is to open your wallet and hand Elliot money, then your premise is accurate. If you goal is to have a stereo you enjoy listening too, then you explore options that cost less up front. You may still need to pay JR or Stirling $10,000 of so to really dial it in over a couple days. But in the end, you don't need to spend massive money for good sound. You only need to set up decent equipment properly.

 

[microstrip]

(...) So thinking spending money is getting you better sound is flawed. (...)

I see your points, but why building arguments based in something no one supports? The point is that if you spend more wisely you get better sound. IMO high-end means support and advice from proper people or buyer expertise. High-end needs user education, as many other hobbies.

Surely there are limitations to system sound quality, such as listening space or listening conditions, but this is not an high-end problem. Or simply listener preference - I have met people who prefer bass overhang and just want an "impressive" tiring cheaper sound.

 

[bonzo75]

As you have stated, audiophile are not trained to set up audio gear.

This is a red herring. There are some speakers that do very well with careful dialling in, and I have seen Stirling do well with Stenheim to showcase that, yet one of his Rockport set up room sounded boring (more to do with choice of speakers rather than set up). That said, there are speakers that could sound better than that stenheim without having to go through such elaborate set up, and some systems sound better due to better equipment matching. You need to match gain of your cartrdige, phono, preamp, poweramp properly, and choose good records, to get a good sound. Have matching high sensitive drivers that allow them to be set up easily to keep harmony across phase, sensitivity, with simple crossovers and simple circuits. Toe in and toe out is a matter of how easy it is for that audiophile to move the speaker on his own, and his interest in doing so. Someone will do that daily and some won't bother even if you help them.

the best "set up" system I heard, where it wasn't just off the shelf stack of the same electronics or custom tuned, was the Pnoe Vyger Red Sparrow Thomas Mayer preamp and 46 power amp. It was a matching of the best individual components coming together to provide a synergistic greater, and every change in it would destroy the sound. 4 years later I still marvel at the thought process behind it. And I did hear it reqularly for 2 years before those 4. It worked well both straight on or toed in, and you had room to move around a bit not stay with head in a vice. It also had by far the best records backing it. There was no special room acoustics, some shun mooks. It was the best set up because it was the highest sensitivity driver without a crossover working with the lowest power amp. IIrc there were some caps only in the phono. Coreless cartridge with the best linear tracker tracing quality records flattened with a quality vacuum.

Do the other horns like Misho's altec etc require set up? Yes but more of the horn (crossover, drivers match, etc) . They need a big room but lots of flexibility in placing in that room. The horn on top can also be pointed various ways. There is a minimum cost required to set up a good system, but after that most of the cost should be in records.

I wouldn't trust the opinions of those who spend and don't post videos - if they do post them, you can use the videos to judge whose opinion to trust. I don't anymore pay attention to those who don't understand records and don't use quality ones with good music for audition. It is just high sound, low sound, wide sound these people are after and they might as well run a test signal. Trinnov type home theatres are best for such folks as it ticks room acoustics, low noise, trouser flapping bass, clarity, resolution, and highs.

 

[Kingrex]

I see your points, but why building arguments based in something no one supports? The point is that if you spend more wisely you get better sound. IMO high-end means support and advice from proper people or buyer expertise. High-end needs user education, as many other hobbies.

I think someone said buying a Ferrari does not make you a better driver. I say, if anyting, its setting you up to die.
I agree, wise money can improve sound. But that does not have to be high $$$ money.

Although, hiring expertise is not inexpensive. I paid 3 pro set up my TT. And I'm still a novice.

@bonzo75
Per post 126. Totally get it.
I had not thought about a horn being easier to set up. Maybe it is. I don't know if my open baffle are easy or not. They seem to drop anywhere and do well. But I am aware there is more to be done. And open baffle, at least mine, rated at low end of 38db and with a mic actually rolling off at 50db need sub support.

 

[Elliot G.]

You can stop yelling. The premise of the question is high end worth it. Not some support of high end. If you have the money, by all means spend it. But pretty boxes don't necessarily get quality sound. Schiit and Decware set up properly could get better sound than expensive boxes with a shiny finish. As you have stated, audiophile are not trained to set up audio gear. So thinking spending money is getting you better sound is flawed. You may end up with ultra clear sound that is fatiguing, and you want to turn it off. Where a simple Decware system set up right, or a system utilizing BACCH can yield extremely satisfying music. If your goal is to open your wallet and hand Elliot money, then your premise is accurate. If you goal is to have a stereo you enjoy listening too, then you explore options that cost less up front. You may still need to pay JR or Stirling $10,000 of so to really dial it in over a couple days. But in the end, you don't need to spend massive money for good sound. You only need to set up decent equipment properly.

I am not yelling at anyone, I am not saying one has to spend a lot of money . I really have no idea why you are so angry. Take a deep breath and relax and perhaps you can learn something before you make more mistakes. You don't ever seem happy and your choices don't seem to make you happy. I am not saying any of the things you are talking about. I am saying that setting up gear in a room properly is very important to getting the correct result. What gear you choose is up to you however it all can sound at its best with some basic facts and work.
The subject du jour is High End gear and to that subject knowing what is the high end might make your angst abate some.

 

[microstrip]

I think someone said buying a Ferrari does not make you a better driver. I say, if anyting, its setting you up to die.

I can't see any relation with this hobby. But independently of it, I could not avoid an envious look the first time I saw the grey Ferrari Roma that sometimes parks near my entrance ...

I agree, wise money can improve sound. But that does not have to be high $$$ money.

IMO it does not depend on the absolute value. Wisely used $200k can give you better sound than $100k. Surely 101k probably doesn't.

Although, hiring expertise is not inexpensive. I paid 3 pro set up my TT. And I'm still a novice.

There are many great quality turntable options than even a novice can set up easily with perfection - like following a cookbook. And in this hobby we believe on what we want to believe. Why setting up a turntable sound be intrinsically different from a tape machine?

But if we have the money, why bothering? Get the experts!

 

[Holmz]

I can't see any relation with this hobby. But independently of it, I could not avoid an envious look the first time I saw the grey Ferrari Roma that sometimes parks near my entrance ...
…

It was in the idea in the opening post.

I went from Harbeth to Wilson via Quad.

Harbeth are soft wall speakers, reducing the resonant frequency of the box below audible levels.
Quad don't have boxes, just a light membrane in free space.
Wilson go for the ultra-rigid non-resonant box approach.

So, upon the subject of cats, there are many ways to skin them.

It was in the context of the post 111 and regarding subwoofers.
And one cannot skin cats to make a resonant subwoofer box not resonate just using DSP.
The construction matters.

Back to the quad though…
It had a textbook step response.
Not sure about the Harbeth, but I am pretty sure that the Wilsons are not ideal in that respect.

 

[JackD201]

Something to think about is how the ear has a built-in tone control. If treble is missing the system will sound bass heavy. If bass is missing the system will seem to emphasize the highs. By getting the bass right, the system will seem more relaxed.

Actually the newer SL1200s are entirely different inside. No idea why they made them look the same; that seems to take away from what they did with the new design.

The chassis is the most expensive part to tool Ralph. Looks like they used the same casts to me. Hey I could be wrong.

 

[Lagonda]

I think someone said buying a Ferrari does not make you a better driver. I say, if anyting, its setting you up to die.
I agree, wise money can improve sound. But that does not have to be high $$$ money.

Although, hiring expertise is not inexpensive. I paid 3 pro set up my TT. And I'm still a novice.

@bonzo75
Per post 126. Totally get it.
I had not thought about a horn being easier to set up. Maybe it is. I don't know if my open baffle are easy or not. They seem to drop anywhere and do well. But I am aware there is more to be done. And open baffle, at least mine, rated at low end of 38db and with a mic actually rolling off at 50db need sub support.

Open baffle speakers are very sensitive to front wall distance, especially in the bass region.

 

[Kingrex]

I am not yelling at anyone, I am not saying one has to spend a lot of money . I really have no idea why you are so angry. Take a deep breath and relax and perhaps you can learn something before you make more mistakes. You don't ever seem happy and your choices don't seem to make you happy. I am not saying any of the things you are talking about. I am saying that setting up gear in a room properly is very important to getting the correct result. What gear you choose is up to you however it all can sound at its best with some basic facts and work.
The subject du jour is High End gear and to that subject knowing what is the high end might make your angst abate some.

I am responding to what I interpret as negative and mean verbiage from you. I don't know I like your personality. You seem to rub me wrong. Just a person thing. Don't take it professionally.

 

[TonyW]

I have read a lot of bold claims and frankly some things mentioned here not entirely accurate.
Right up front I will say that I agree with Elliot G. I've never been in the business but after almost 50 years in this hobby and hanging around stores I agree with what he is saying. Everyone knows a customer is right, even when proven wrong. I myself returned a product twice claiming it was defective before I realized I was the dummy setting it up wrong. It happens.

Turntables/tonearms are as easy to set up as following a cookbook: Can't agree with that statement at all. First of all, given all of the various tonearm designs, each design type have their own unique set-up requirements and methods. But if one stops after making the basic VTA, HTA, VTF, Azimuth and anti-skating force adjustments, then the cartridge is hardly optimized. That's just the starting point. Every cartridge has be be dialed in by listening for optimum sound. That is something that has to be learned- and some may never be able to do it properly. All the tools in the world can't replace dialing in a cartridge by ear.

High end audio isn't deadly like high performance cars: Really? Grab a voltmeter and take some voltage measurements inside an amp. Take some voltage readings inside a tube amp or preamp and you'll see that they are quite deadly. They have a lot of stored energy in their oversized capacitors. Not a good idea to go poking around in there with your finger. Back in the day tube amps/preamps required putting a voltmeter directly on capacitors inside to measure and adjust bias voltage. You better watch yourself. These days I see most tube gear is auto biasing or have built in voltmeters and adjustments on the outside of the chassis. Definitely much safer. But I would not let small children around those glass tubes.

Quad speakers have text book step response while Wilson speakers are not ideal; Total nonsense. Take a few minutes to look up the step response of Quad, Thiel, Wilson or other speakers on the web. They all are quite similar. The Thiels have the best response but they are clearly underdamped as evidenced by the ringing after the step input. The Wilsons and Quads are critically damped giving just a slightly elongated recovery time but that prevents ringing.

My buddy builds speakers that sound better than Wilson XVX for a fraction of the cost: Hard to prove other than Wilson is a business with a pedigree and years of expertise in building speakers. You know, building a speaker is not just about selecting some drivers and crossovers off the web and stuffing them into a box made of special ingredients. The Cabinet design, structure and volume must be optimized for the type of drivers that will be used. Then the crossover networks must be designed to work with the selected drivers and the cabinet. The electrical properties are influenced by the mechanical properties of the cabinet design. Unless your buddy has an anechoic chamber and some good measuring equipment then he needs a really good ear to make a great sounding speaker. I tend to believe the high end speaker manufacturer have a lot of both. A lot of physics and math involved in building speakers. It's hardly a cut and try process these days.

I'm not trying to step on toes but listen to what some of these experts are saying. They may not always be right but they certainly have the battle scars and experience. And sure, now and then a really smart guy comes along and figures it all out in a day. Mozarts are far and few between.

 

[Lee]

Been thinking about this thread a bit and have two comments...

1. There may be some way to measure a fair price for speakers and components and that is the "times markup" versus bill of materials. In loudspeakers, it can be 5X-8X. That covers overhead, profit to distributors, dealers, warranty, etc. It's still pretty subjective even if you go down this route and these are largely tiny, private manufacturers so good luck getting accurate data.

2. Luxury goods like high end audio are very subjective. I think as an audiophile gets more experienced they realize they can hear more and more minute differences (at least minute to the general population). But they also realize these minute differences make all the difference in the world. Even slightly improved noise floors have a significant impact. Ultimately, the sound quality for an expensive component or speaker will be determined by the what the customer likes and whether they write the check. From a purely free markets perspective, all sold hifi is worth it because someone purchased it. But as we have discovered, proper setup is critical to getting the most out of the gear.

 

[chuck]

"For us, a system which needs a purpose-built, heavily-treated room to perform is a failure. Just as much of a failure are loudspeakers which demand inch perfect placement before they sing, or deliver a tiny sweet spot only inches wide.

Of course, there will be an ideal listening position, and a final sliver of performance from the optimal speaker setup. Place any of our speakers perfectly in carefully-designed and acoustically-treated room and you will understand why they have enjoyed so many accolades. However, we also aim to deliver very close to that ultimate performance from any listening position in any room, with as much placement flexibility as possible." YG Acoustics.

There is an underlying theme to all this blather about rooms and setup -- essentially, that under $100K speakers with an expert, painstaking setup with plenty of room treatment can sound better than YG Sonja XVi speakers just put in a room roughly in the Jim Smith 10 foot equilateral triangle. That if you put in the effort, you can' get the same level sound without having to buy $300K speakers. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but it is not true. Jeff is right, the sound they make can't be had for less -- they really are way better. Like Jeff, it took me years to get them. If they did not actually sound like a symphony orchestra, I would not have spent the money on them. I am amazed that they exist at all and anyone can buy them.

 

[TonyW]

"For us, a system which needs a purpose-built, heavily-treated room to perform is a failure. Just as much of a failure are loudspeakers which demand inch perfect placement before they sing, or deliver a tiny sweet spot only inches wide.

Of course, there will be an ideal listening position, and a final sliver of performance from the optimal speaker setup. Place any of our speakers perfectly in carefully-designed and acoustically-treated room and you will understand why they have enjoyed so many accolades. However, we also aim to deliver very close to that ultimate performance from any listening position in any room, with as much placement flexibility as possible." YG Acoustics.

There is an underlying theme to all this blather about rooms and setup -- essentially, that under $100K speakers with an expert, painstaking setup with plenty of room treatment can sound better than YG Sonja XVi speakers just put in a room roughly in the Jim Smith 10 foot equilateral triangle. That if you put in the effort, you can' get the same level sound without having to buy $300K speakers. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but it is not true. Jeff is right, the sound they make can't be had for less -- they really are way better. Like Jeff, it took me years to get them. If they did not actually sound like a symphony orchestra, I would not have spent the money on them. I am amazed that they exist at all and anyone can buy them.

Which do you prefer- a high school gym or an Opera House to hear a musical performance?

 

[Elliot G.]

I'm not trying to step on toes but listen to what some of these experts are saying. They may not always be right but they certainly have the battle scars and experience. And sure, now and then a really smart guy comes along and figures it all out in a day. Mozarts are far and few between.

Tony we live in a time where there are all Chiefs and no Indians. The internet has made everyone an expert and all opinions equal. Although freedom of expression is a good thing the ability to sort through the information that is right versus what is wrong has become increasingly more difficult. Audio is very tribal and full of ego. People are very protective of their tribe ( audio choices) and easily get insulted and angry when someone disagrees. We see this every day now in almost every arena.
My point, still the same, after the insults is that the set up and positioning of the system is the number one limiting factor to overall audio quality. I believe there are numerous quality products available, different in degrees, but still of high quality that people can select what they prefer however they should realize the limitations that are caused by environment. I don't care how many times they want to walk around it it is still there and needs to be addressed. what blows my mind is why is there so much denial about something that is so obvious and so easy to see/hear?

 

[bonzo75]

Which do you prefer- a high school gym or an Opera House to hear a musical performance?

Most high spending audiophiles have been to neither a gym nor an opera house

 

[Elliot G.]

"For us, a system which needs a purpose-built, heavily-treated room to perform is a failure. Just as much of a failure are loudspeakers which demand inch perfect placement before they sing, or deliver a tiny sweet spot only inches wide.

I agree with this however ALL speakers require positioning to sound their best. One doesn't need a heavily treated room, but one may need something to address obvious flaws. There are two different subjects being conflated here.
If you want the most out of what you bought then the set up and room is extremely import. The laws of physics don't bend to opinion. You can however in a "normal" room with little or no treatment still produce excellent sound with some effort and thought. There are levels of performance and the higher levels require that more and more issues in the environment be addressed. This is not either or it is a scale of what is and what can be.