Usually with a test LP or CD that demonstrates in-phase and out-of-phase. Use them, listen, and reverse the speaker leads, if you need to.
Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
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I have a good friend coming to help with mine. Bob from the Audiophile Junkie. He has a very well set up system. From what I am learning, setting up speakers is not just moving speakers around. He is going to bring ASC - Studio Traps as well as Bass Traps. Reflective on one side and full absorption on the other.
Plus a M66 mic and REW software. I actually have REW and a Umik1. I should use mine to learn better. Anyhow, my sense is I will need roughly 10 traps around my room. How much is that. $5000 roughly. And, you need good power. How much is that. Probably another $5000 with your electrician. So now, a foundation for good sound, may set you back an additional investment of $10,000.
If I wanted to tie this into the topic so I am not yelled at, I believe a well tuned budget system has high potential to play better than a $200,000 plus system. But the budget system is going to require an investment in the room. If the expensive system is in a good, well tuned room, who knows.
Is it worth it to purchase a $200,000 system. Sure. Why not. I mean, you could be buried with your money. I am watching Kaos on Netflix. If you don't get buried with some money, your screwed.
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Ok, let’s try again.
If 2 of the drivers are in phase the third is out of phase, then what do you suggest?
1) 2 in phase (woofer and tweeter)
2) Or 1 in phase. (Midrange)
Is high-end gear worth the money?
For the audiophile who believes the higher the cost, the higher their status within the community, then yes, of course it is worth the money. Like having HRH in front your name, having the more expensive system gives them a sense of authority, that whatever they write in this thread will be seen as having greater value than what is written by those with less expensive systems. Being able to afford so much on a hobby, they believe, tells the world they are a success, they’ve made it. And, whether or not the most expensive components and cables sound 100 times better than less expensive components, you’ll have a very hard time convincing them they don’t. They will never believe their expenditure might not have been really worth it, to find that out I would suggest interviewing their widows afterwards.
I am not saying that one can put together a world-class system with budget equipment. But you don’t need to buy the most expensive equipment to get great sound, perhaps the best sound in your experience (biased? who among us hasn’t come home from a hi-fi show thinking there wasn’t a single system there that sounded better than theirs?).
Sometimes you have to pay a lot to get the “right” component. Perhaps you can’t build your own amp, turntable, or speakers. Perhaps you can’t find what you want to modify or can’t find ‘that’ particular component on the used market. You will then have to pay retail and at this level retail isn’t cheap, but not necessarily the most expensive. Even if you are all thumbs and lack the technical skills and equipment to “roll yer own”, you can still attain world-class by paying someone who is able to modify used starting points (like hiring Ray at Classic Turntable Company to turn an old Garrard 301/401 into one of his CTC Reference turntables, and building (or having someone build) a great plinth, for beauty, function or both (i.e. using slate, or Panzerholtz).
So the above makes me a different type of audiophile, one who takes pride in the “belief” they constructed a world-class system for a fraction of the cost of those whose sound is at a similar level. Are there more expensive systems which sound better than mine? Undoubtably. Is that slight difference worth the much greater expense? That question is not mine to answer.
For the audiophile who believes the higher the cost, the higher their status within the community, then yes, of course it is worth the money. Like having HRH in front your name, having the more expensive system gives them a sense of authority, that whatever they write in this thread will be seen as having greater value than what is written by those with less expensive systems. Being able to afford so much on a hobby, they believe, tells the world they are a success, they’ve made it. And, whether or not the most expensive components and cables sound 100 times better than less expensive components, you’ll have a very hard time convincing them they don’t. They will never believe their expenditure might not have been really worth it, to find that out I would suggest interviewing their widows afterwards.
I am not saying that one can put together a world-class system with budget equipment. But you don’t need to buy the most expensive equipment to get great sound, perhaps the best sound in your experience (biased? who among us hasn’t come home from a hi-fi show thinking there wasn’t a single system there that sounded better than theirs?).
Sometimes you have to pay a lot to get the “right” component. Perhaps you can’t build your own amp, turntable, or speakers. Perhaps you can’t find what you want to modify or can’t find ‘that’ particular component on the used market. You will then have to pay retail and at this level retail isn’t cheap, but not necessarily the most expensive. Even if you are all thumbs and lack the technical skills and equipment to “roll yer own”, you can still attain world-class by paying someone who is able to modify used starting points (like hiring Ray at Classic Turntable Company to turn an old Garrard 301/401 into one of his CTC Reference turntables, and building (or having someone build) a great plinth, for beauty, function or both (i.e. using slate, or Panzerholtz).
So the above makes me a different type of audiophile, one who takes pride in the “belief” they constructed a world-class system for a fraction of the cost of those whose sound is at a similar level. Are there more expensive systems which sound better than mine? Undoubtably. Is that slight difference worth the much greater expense? That question is not mine to answer.
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My stereo hasn't hummed since a brief flirtation with tube amplifiers. For me a good stereo system has to stay moderately convincing at low listening levels.
I bought my speakers from a very high-end dealer. After I built my new room (the wife did most of it) and he came round to position the speakers correctly, he was delighted because the room worked and it took him under an hour. I got the impression this was not his usual experience. One dealer I know told me he was installing a pair of $100,000 PMC Fenestria speakers and had to get the client to buy a Trinnov DSP device to get them to work in the room at all.
I doubt my system reaches $100,000, it certainly didn't cost that (excluding the room rebuild), but it suits my preferences. Couldn't want for anything else. So it's good value for me.
We tend to be "less is more" type people. We don't like clutter, unnecessary things lying around are quickly despatched, for us value is in aesthetics rather than monetary terms. The single most expensive object in our house is not a hifi component, it's a ceramic wall hanging by a South Korean artist that I doubt few have ever heard of.
If you are referring to reverse polarity, I would suggest you do nothing; most probably, the speaker was designed that way. However, I realise you did not ask me...
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Now I agree with you. Your system gets to a level where it is hard to distinguish it from other high end systems in a store or at a show for two reasons:
The venue is unfamiliar to you and their demo lacks the optimization and refinement of the room compared to your home system.
We might hear a few things that sound better in the demonstration system but in our minds it is not enough to motivate a sale.
On the other hand, bringing a new component into my home and giving it an audition allows me to instantly tell the difference. Then I often, not always end up buying the new component. That’s the frog analogy. Buying more better, more expensive gear a little at a time.
And also, only a handful of people have seen/heard my system. I don’t talk about it to people unless they are someone that is into music or audio. Even when people come to our home few ever are invited into my study.
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
Thank you for making my point. I don't know Bob and I have been using ASC products when required for almost 40 years.
Results are not about money however they probably will cost money to get them.
You have to know how to identify the issues/issue in order to solve it /them. This may require spending money and it may not.
The placement of speakers is incredibly important , in my opinion the most important, however if the room has serious issues it will need to be addressed first.
Let me tell you about a case in point. I have a client in Tampa. He purchased a new home a while back. I went to visit him and the room he wanted to use was just an empty shoe box. It was neither good nor bad just unusable as it sat. It was a hollow echo chamber with nothing in it, We took serious measurements and made a scale drawing and sent it to be modeled ( which didn't cost anything since I am a dealer for the company that makes the products) we got back a room design plan. We discussed this and the colors and look and we went forward. You can read his testimonial on my website.
Another way is to have someone who will be able to tell you what the problems in your room are, where you should sit and where the best place for your speakers might be. This IMO is a good way to begin and achieve a goal, i don't mean to be anything but helpful but it doesn't sound like you have any plan other than to try stuff with a friend. If that is it then good luck as I said it isn't about money its about knowing how to solve issues and doing that. A small pair of bookshelf speakers properly placed with moderate gear can sound really good and obviously a huge expensive system can sound like crap, its not the gear or at least it may not be the gear but it is for sure the set up of the gear in the room that makes MOST of the difference.
Even Elliot seems to be saying, you can have the room, have the power and have the ASC devices in hand, but you won't be able to .ake the room sound good. Not on your own. You won't get there unless you are trained and have tools you know how to use.
It helps me say, no. Its not worth it to spend money on expensive gear. A true audiophile who wants good sound would be better off getting a very bidget stereo for say $30k, fix the electrical, pay JR or others to set it up, and have a budget of say $7000 for room treatment as necessary.
That seems to be the best way to get any performance from what you have. Otherwise, your throwing bad money at bad money. You won't get there on your own. Poor blind squirrel died of starvation.
FWIW. Bob has Odyssey amps. $5k or so. Focal speakers. But his home made pyramid speakers may be better. Home made subs with a krell amp . Far better than the SVS he is selling. My power to the room. His own structural changes to stiffen the floors. About 12 ASC traps.
What I'm saying is, Bob has well under $30,000 in gear yet his stereo sounds better than systems with Wilson Alex V and $80,000 in amps and $100,000 in vinyl. Basically $30,000 is outperforming $250,000.
It helps me say, no. Its not worth it to spend money on expensive gear. A true audiophile who wants good sound would be better off getting a very bidget stereo for say $30k, fix the electrical, pay JR or others to set it up, and have a budget of say $7000 for room treatment as necessary.
That seems to be the best way to get any performance from what you have. Otherwise, your throwing bad money at bad money. You won't get there on your own. Poor blind squirrel died of starvation.
FWIW. Bob has Odyssey amps. $5k or so. Focal speakers. But his home made pyramid speakers may be better. Home made subs with a krell amp . Far better than the SVS he is selling. My power to the room. His own structural changes to stiffen the floors. About 12 ASC traps.
What I'm saying is, Bob has well under $30,000 in gear yet his stereo sounds better than systems with Wilson Alex V and $80,000 in amps and $100,000 in vinyl. Basically $30,000 is outperforming $250,000.
generally, i don't agree. but budgeting priorities don't really scale. at the modest end of gear budgets i think it's better to maximize the gear performance and take a DIY approach to acoustics and be a fanatic about set-up. and get some help. performance differences matter at price points. at higher level budgets things can change.
for instance; i'd choose the best $17k speakers and DIY acoustics over the best $10k speakers and $7k worth of acoustics. most lower SPL music i listen to would be better. and long term i have a better foundation to build on. this is an over simplification for sure, but just my viewpoint. and it assumes the ability to choose the best speakers for the investment is done properly.
speaker performance is the ultimate limit to basic systems. it dominates.
i'm not discounting attention to the room and acoustics factor. maybe i'm the poster child for room and acoustics commitment. but building a starter system is a different case. gear performance dominates at the modest end. rooms can be messed with to good effect without big spends.
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Elliot G.
Industry Expert
I'm not sure what the shock is here. In anything you want to do and do it well you need knowledge and experience. I can buy a race car and read a book on how to drive does that make me a race car driver? I can buy the best kitchen and a cook book does that make me a chef?
Mike spent a lot of time and money to learn how to make his system and room work. I congratulate him for that and others that have managed the same thing. That however is the exception not the rule. There is science, knowledge and experience that is involved in setting an audio system up.
I don't get why that is hard to grasp Rex. I go out to dinner to eat things I can't cook. I go to concerts to hear things I can t play or hear. I don't understand why audio people think that the rules of life do not apply to audio. If you want to learn how to make your system work that's great but just buying shit is not the answer. Life needs teachers and mentors however today we discount that and accept influencers and posters. Do these people have knowledge and experience? This is the real question and if they do then they should be able to do what they say they can do.
I don't see much of that sorry. Call me what you want my experience shows me that most can't, not all but most can't.
What is your goal Rex?
A man's got to know his limitations.
From the movie Magnum Force, 1973
From the movie Magnum Force, 1973
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
in 1994 i moved into my first 'dedicated' room, my den in my previous home. it was 12' wide x 18' long x 10.5' high. had a nice bay window and bookshelves in the rear. i had some Kef speakers. soon i bought used Wilson Watt Puppy 3/2's. i did some gear upgrades along the way, and a few years later i made my own fabric covered wall treatments. over time my set-up skills improved. eventually i added some ASC tube traps in the front corners. maybe at the time a $2000 investment.
that ended up becoming a great sounding room, if a bit tight and limiting.
to me that is the pathway of the starter system. get the gear you can afford and improve the overall performance in steps as you listen and learn. but don't get ahead of yourself and think you can shortcut the learning curve. throwing money at something you don't yet understand mostly slows you down.
that ended up becoming a great sounding room, if a bit tight and limiting.
to me that is the pathway of the starter system. get the gear you can afford and improve the overall performance in steps as you listen and learn. but don't get ahead of yourself and think you can shortcut the learning curve. throwing money at something you don't yet understand mostly slows you down.
Just so you know, if you don't have multiple subs in the room to break up standing waves, the software and traps will have limited effect. Bass is usually the biggest problem in any room; bass traps and software do about 5% of what is needed if standing waves are causing a loss of bass. If this is the case, due to the cancellation caused by the standing waves, all the software can do is cause the amp to put out more power at that frequency and it will get cancelled too. Standing waves are common in any room with regular dimensions.
But if you use multiple subs fixing the bass is suddenly easy. If they are set up right (in what is called a Distributed Bass Array) they can do 95% of the job needed to fix the bass. At that point the room correction and bass traps can then do the job to get you to 100%. But when you reach that 95% point you may wonder if its worth it. Audiokinesis, as I mentioned in an earlier post, makes very effective subs for this purpose that are not expensive.
I have been 100% agreeing with you all along. But the point you make about knowledge can also be interpreted as, why waste the money if your not going to hire someone to tume your room.
My goal is a good sounding room. Hence, Bob is going to help me. Bob is self taught. But he's been at it for 30 years and has tools. Its a starting point.
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
No one has knowledge Rex knowledge is learned .
A good sounding room isn't really a goal as it truly is vague and IMO meaningless. Try starting with something simple like identifying issues in yur room like slap echo or nodes. Try and see what happens when you move your listening position forward or back. Walk around your room while the music is playing and listen for differences.
If I may suggest start with something really simple like a solo instrument. Take a acoustic guitar or a violin .
with that solo instrument ( you can try Wilson or Sumiko set ups as a starting point) and listen to what happens to the sound, you might want to make notes, when you move he speaker and inch at a time, this is how you start and how you learn.
IMO if you can get the small things correct or close the rest is going to follow. I know this is only a few things but they are a great place to start before you put stuff in your room without understanding why and what you are trying to fix or change.
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I'm going to build 4 sub cabinets about 12 x 20 interior with a 10" Dayton or a pyramid shape and maybe 12s. Then use Odyssey Audio amps a Ashley active crossover. Or maybe Yamaha PX5 amps with built in dsp.
Bob is trying to get me to take his 2 x SVS. But he knows the swarm is better. He uses 4 himself.
Why walk around. So what if there are peaks and nulls far from the listening position. The goal isn't great sound wall to wall???
What information do you get if you walk 10, 12, 14 feet back from the speakers and bass falls off and the image gets smaller.
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