Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[Mike Lavigne]

I think Steve ordered new speakers recently.

which on paper are tougher loads than his XLF's. and Steve has not yet heard them.

my guess is that the new speakers will work great for Steve and he will be thrilled. but known improved amplifier synergy is not yet an issue one way or the other. so not a factor in his decision that i have read.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Considering most modern DACs , technically the preamplifier is an useless and impossible to justify extra equipment. It does not add gain or perform impedance matching. All it can do is add some colorations that probably we like and find to benefit the performance of our systems. Surely it has switching capabilities, but suppose someone does not need them.

I say it since long, but until now I always preferred the sound of my system with a preamplifier.

power supplies, power supplies, power supplies, volume attenuation, volume attenuation, volume attenuation.

top flight active preamps have clear advantages in those areas over any dac i have seen. and those matter to the musical essence. and great amps will showcase the differences. i wish these things did not matter, but they do.

not that every high level preamp will produce the same advantages over an internal passive volume attenuation inside a dac.

 

[PeterA]

Well, I asked several times for advice and never got any useful advice. Just vintage, hard to obtain or colored speakers that were not my preference.
And I am not addressing high level listening in a very large room.
You can find easily the threads in WBF.



The cables sent and advised by DDK. He is not in WBF anymore, I will pass this subject.



Both ways - I had the special amp stands advised by Vladimir Lamm.
If an amplifier does not play to my preference on the floor, I do not expect the stand to modify it.



More than a year I think , several years to find a buyer with big money losses. Some people gave up after reading your friend Romy blog comments on Vladimir and his designs ...



Yes, we exchanged many mails. Again do not expect me to share private emails information.

After all your answers to my direct questions, I learned nothing. It seems like the advice was sound, you just didn’t like it. I bought the amps and then the appropriate speakers. You already owned the speakers and then took a chance with the amps.

Why do you assume Romy is my friend? Perhaps you should follow your own advice to me and ask before assuming.

 

[PeterA]

Hello Peter,

Do you consider your Lamm ML2s to be neutral?

I do not know Ron. I do not think in those terms. I would not know how to measure it or determine whether or not an amplifier is neutral. My target is a natural presentation. The Lamm ML2 paired with my Vitavox CN-191 produces a natural presentation. The pair sounds balanced and does not draw attention to itself.

Do you consider any of your amplifiers to be neutral? If so, what do you mean by that and how do you know it?

 

[Ron Resnick]

I do not know Ron. I do not think in those terms. I would not know how to measure it or determine whether or not an amplifier is neutral. My target is a natural presentation. The Lamm ML2 paired with my Vitavox CN-191 produces a natural presentation. The pair sounds balanced and does not draw attention to itself.

Do you consider any of your amplifiers to be neutral? If so, what do you mean by that and how do you know it?

But that's just not true. At least it is not what you have said in the past. We know you don't like "colored."

You wrote: "If there is a character across instruments and recordings, I consider the system or component, if it can be isolated, as being colored. I do not have that impression of Lamm SET amps." (October 30, 2023)

Doesn't neutral mean the absence of being colored?

 

[bonzo75]

You say this like it is a bad thing.

I am saying it for what it is instead of the justification that was given. You cannot audition any set amp on an inefficient speaker, and cannot audition a high efficiency speaker on a Krell.

 

[Ron Resnick]

You cannot audition any set amp on an inefficient speaker, and cannot audition a high efficiency speaker on a Krell.

+1

 

[PeterA]

But that's just not true. At least it is not what you have said in the past. We know you don't like "colored."

You wrote: "If there is a character across instruments and recordings, I consider the system or component, if it can be isolated, as being colored. I do not have that impression of Lamm SET amps." (October 30, 2023)

Doesn't neutral mean the absence of being colored?

What exactly is not true? Yes, I don’t want my amps to sound colored. You asked me if I think the ML2s are neutral. I wrote that I don’t know and that I don’t know how to determine if they are. What are you trying to figure out? Have I described them as neutral before? I wrote that I want a natural sounding system that reminds me of the experience I have when listening to live music. The Lamms are part of a system that does that for me.

Why don’t you answer my questions since you seem to know what it is and how to determine it? You have all sorts of amps.

 

[PeterA]

I am saying it for what it is instead of the justification that was given. You cannot audition any set amp on an inefficient speaker, and cannot audition a high efficiency speaker on a Krell.

You can do so, but it is not wise. Great point.

 

[bonzo75]

so we continue to pump the narrative that Lamm gear can only be judged with certain speakers. yet we know other Lamm ML3 users using those speakers and being very happy.

why don't you bother Steve Williams with all this stuff? and explain to him how it's not working? he uses his own special cables. are they Lamm certified? yet myself and Francisco just did not prefer what we heard to alternatives. neither of us disliked the Lamm. we simply liked something else more for our own particular reasons.

maybe you two could issue validity badges for when gear gets sold and the reasons are legit so we can keep things properly approved.

There is no narrative continuation on Lamm on my part, I have never supported auditioning any SET on inefficient speakers, including Steve's.

For the record, I had told micro those Lamms won't match those wilsons before he bought them, he put them on sale 3 months after he bought them. The fact that it took him 3 years to sell them off is a different point.

Yes happy to sell validity badges, maybe if people pay a premium for it they will listen given they ignore free advice - and 95% underdrive their speakers, including both forum owners.

On your Lamm thread, what I supported was that Lamm will not sound as good as Dartzeel, which some people seemed to imply it would, which is a very different point to whether the amps can be compared on the same speaker.

 

[Argonaut]

To hear what Lamm is capable of doing, you must have an appropriate speaker and you can not color the sound with the wrong supporting gear. Just my controversial opinion.

Which is precisely what you have implemented ! Imho and In my experience based upon nearly three years of ownership of Vitavox CN-191’s

By way of some balance … I have owned CN-191’s In the past , initially as a mono speaker in a dedicated mono system , later adding a second unit followed a third close matching unit , I know how they work and how they sound and they are a bit of a curates egg tbh .

Firstly and importantly they are *Coloured* , in the accepted sense of the word where transducers are concerned.

There is also a slight but distinct disconnect between the two drivers around the crossover point , which can be ameliorated somewhat with modification work on the crossovers , rolled off at both frequency extremes , not such a biggie perhaps material dependent , slightly compressed on male vocals in the lower register , female upper register , they can also become a tad ‘confused’ with really complex passages of music , the CN 157 Aluminium alloy horn can sound a little ‘glassy’ when pushed , being the reason imho for a slight metallic sheen on Violin , Trumpet Alto Sax , in the higher octaves , a brightness to some leading edges of notes , particularly with higher energy passages on some recordings, together with a tendency for notes to not fully flesh out in the fundamental , and then not decay in an entirely convincing manner , as per the instruments live.

This tendency could be eleviated somewhat by the application of dampening material to the outside rear of the CN 157 horn , however a delicate balance , as too much dampening and the horn lost some of its clarity and vitality, the soundstage as a whole is wide but without any great depth and can sound a tad 2 D .

Most Importantly perhaps *The CN-191 Do Not Present An Audio Signal In An Entirely Accurate or Convincing Way To The Source Recording* *They present their own version of events*.

All that said , stick on a Little Crooner , Rat Pack , Girl and Guitar , Lighter Classical or even a little Big Band ( if not pushed too hard ) and they are engaging and quite enjoyable … However the larger scale Operatic and Symphonic works tend to be their Achilles Heal .

 

[PeterA]

Which is precisely what you have implemented ! Imho and In my experience based upon nearly three years of ownership of Vitavox CN-191’s

By way of some balance … I have owned CN-191’s In the past , initially as a mono speaker in a dedicated mono system , later adding a second unit followed a third close matching unit , I know how they work and how they sound and they are a bit of a curates egg tbh .

Firstly and importantly they are *Coloured* , in the accepted sense of the word where transducers are concerned.

There is also a slight but distinct disconnect between the two drivers around the crossover point , which can be ameliorated somewhat with modification work on the crossovers , rolled off at both frequency extremes , not such a biggie perhaps material dependent , slightly compressed on male vocals in the lower register , female upper register , they can also become a tad ‘confused’ with really complex passages of music , the CN 157 Aluminium alloy horn can sound a little ‘glassy’ when pushed , being the reason imho for a slight metallic sheen on Violin , Trumpet Alto Sax , in the higher octaves , a brightness to some leading edges of notes , particularly with higher energy passages on some recordings, together with a tendency for notes to not fully flesh out in the fundamental , and then not decay in an entirely convincing manor , as per the instruments live.

This tendency could be eleviated somewhat by the application of dampening material to the outside rear of the CN 157 horn , however a delicate balance , as too much dampening and the horn lost some of its clarity and vitality, the soundstage as a whole is wide but without any great depth and can sound a tad 2 D .

Most Importantly perhaps *The CN-191 Do Not Present An Audio Signal In An Accurate or Convincing Way To The Source Recording* *They present their own version of events*.

All that said , stick on a Little Crooner , Rat Pack , Girl and Guitar , Lighter Classical or Big Band ( if not pushed too hard ) and they are quite enjoyable …

Perhaps your system sounded that way, I have no idea. Your description does not match at all what I hear in my room. The system is very revealing of component or wire changes and set up, so maybe something was wrong there.

With both my Magico Minis and the Q3s, I heard them sound very different in other systems than they sounded in mine. It had to do with the rest of the system and the set up. I do not know anything about your old system.

 

[Argonaut]

Perhaps your system sounded that way, I have no idea. Your description does not match at all what I hear in my room.

All Vitavox CN-191’s that I have personally heard, before during and after my tenure with them “ sounded that way “ in five disparate systems in five disparate rooms . It is how they were constructed and how they transduce audio signals .

They can be tweaked as I alluded to in my previous post , particularly by the application of bitumen ( which was commonly used as a resonance control back then by the modding / DIY crowd ) to the outer shell of the CN157 horn .

 

[hopkins]

Perhaps your system sounded that way, I have no idea. Your description does not match at all what I hear in my room. The system is very revealing of component or wire changes and set up, so maybe something was wrong there.

With both my Magico Minis and the Q3s, I heard them sound very different in other systems than they sounded in mine. It had to do with the rest of the system and the set up. I do not know anything about your old system.

Perhaps colored sound is not incompatible with your concept of "natural sound" (to put it as kindly as I can).

Two people listening to the same music may not have the same ability to identify tonal accuracy, as is illustrated in the comments on this video of the Bionor that you posted, for example:

Post in thread 'Violin videos: solo or with small ensemble' https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/violin-videos-solo-or-with-small-ensemble.31577/post-1037024

 

[tima]

Evaluating a speaker by itself, independent of a specific amplifier, or vice versa, is a fool's errand.

which neither objectively supports nor negates preferences. shades of grey at best. cases for ideal matches are simply data points, not proof or evidence.

Huh?

 

[tima]

... Do you consider your Lamm ML2s to be neutral?

There is no neutral.

 

[Rensselaer]

Which is precisely what you have implemented ! Imho and In my experience based upon nearly three years of ownership of Vitavox CN-191’s

By way of some balance … I have owned CN-191’s In the past , initially as a mono speaker in a dedicated mono system , later adding a second unit followed a third close matching unit , I know how they work and how they sound and they are a bit of a curates egg tbh .

Firstly and importantly they are *Coloured* , in the accepted sense of the word where transducers are concerned.

There is also a slight but distinct disconnect between the two drivers around the crossover point , which can be ameliorated somewhat with modification work on the crossovers , rolled off at both frequency extremes , not such a biggie perhaps material dependent , slightly compressed on male vocals in the lower register , female upper register , they can also become a tad ‘confused’ with really complex passages of music , the CN 157 Aluminium alloy horn can sound a little ‘glassy’ when pushed , being the reason imho for a slight metallic sheen on Violin , Trumpet Alto Sax , in the higher octaves , a brightness to some leading edges of notes , particularly with higher energy passages on some recordings, together with a tendency for notes to not fully flesh out in the fundamental , and then not decay in an entirely convincing manner , as per the instruments live.

This tendency could be eleviated somewhat by the application of dampening material to the outside rear of the CN 157 horn , however a delicate balance , as too much dampening and the horn lost some of its clarity and vitality, the soundstage as a whole is wide but without any great depth and can sound a tad 2 D .

Most Importantly perhaps *The CN-191 Do Not Present An Audio Signal In An Accurate or Convincing Way To The Source Recording* *They present their own version of events*.

All that said , stick on a Little Crooner , Rat Pack , Girl and Guitar , Lighter Classical or even a little Big Band ( if not pushed too hard ) and they are engaging and quite enjoyable … However the larger scale Operatic and Symphonic works tend to be their Achilles Heal .

Wow! I have never listened to those speakers in person so have no idea if what you say is valid, but your description is excellent. I hear many of the traits you attribute to the CN-191’s in my Altec A7’s, but they are subtle so perhaps (like fall off at frequency extremes and small shallow sound stage) typical of horn speakers with paper cones. What you don’t say is how, despite these shortcomings, SETs with vintage horn speakers, IMHO, can sound more real than 90% of any commercially available speakers out there.

 

[Argonaut]

I hear many of the traits you attribute to the CN-191’s in my Altec A7’s, but they are subtle so perhaps (like fall off at frequency extremes and small shallow sound stage) typical of horn speakers with paper cones.

For my part another pleasing and enjoyable transducer non the less , Kedar’s YouTube content conveys a musically engaging system .

 

[microstrip]

power supplies, power supplies, power supplies, volume attenuation, volume attenuation, volume attenuation.

top flight active preamps have clear advantages in those areas over any dac i have seen. and those matter to the musical essence. and great amps will showcase the differences. i wish these things did not matter, but they do.

not that every high level preamp will produce the same advantages over an internal passive volume attenuation inside a dac.

Did you notice I wrote "technically" and addressed just the two technical aspects that matter in "technically" matching?

We agree on the "musical essence", just wanted to point that it is an "added" characteristic. BTW, modern DAC's with output impedance and output voltage adjustability, can be technically much better attenuators than active preamplifiers.

 

[microstrip]

After all your answers to my direct questions, I learned nothing.

Ok, my apologies.

It seems like the advice was sound, you just didn’t like it.

Oh, it seems you understood. I have explained several times in this forum why I do not consider unobtainium, hard to service and unexplained equipment.

I bought the amps and then the appropriate speakers. You already owned the speakers and then took a chance with the amps.

Ok, after I asked the people I considered experts, as I said in my answer.

Why do you assume Romy is my friend? Perhaps you should follow your own advice to me and ask before assuming.

Well, I read your post in another thread (I quote you).

"Yes, I learned a great deal that day meeting Romy and listening to his system with David. They surely are not the usual suspects."