Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[microstrip]

There is no neutral.

Surely there is no absolute neutral. But some electronics approach the straight wire with gain (Stewart Hegeman expression) better than others. IMO Lamm is not one of those.

In my limited experience, the old Cello Audio Pallette with the equalizer switched off was one of the more neutral preamplfiers I used. A good friend owned the Cello Audio Suite and it was also very neutral. At that time I was listening mostly to Quad ESL63.

I still regret having sold the Audio Palette.

 

[tima]

Doesn't neutral mean the absence of being colored?

Tone color (timbre) comes from harmonics and overtones.

 

[bonzo75]

Tone color (timbre) comes from harmonics and overtones.

Tone colour is different from the coloured used to describe components, which means a constant homogenising attribute is being applied. If a system makes every recording to have the same soundstage, it is coloured.

Neutral is less homogenising and letting more differences and changes through

I know some people think that neutral is just clinically analytical grey tone

 

[tima]

Tone colour is different from the coloured used to describe components, which means a constant homogenising attribute is being applied. If a system makes every recording to have the same soundstage, it is coloured.

Neutral is less homogenising and letting more differences and changes through

I know some people think that neutral is just clinically analytical grey tone

Ok. I think the word 'homogenizing' is a better choice as it is explicit vs 'colored'. Or perhaps having a particular 'signature' is akin to homogenizing. I prefer to stay away from 'neutral'. The less fungible the audiophile words, the better.

 

[Argonaut]

Tone colour is different from the coloured used to describe components

Just so , as in the sentence as follows from post number 551 a little earlier.

“ Most Importantly perhaps *The CN-191 Do Not Present An Audio Signal In An Entirely Accurate or Convincing Way To The Source Recording* *They present their own version of events*. “

I think it important to recognise that some owners of subjectively *Coloured* audio equipment simply prefer to hear their audio signal adulterated in such a way , and is by implementation a personal choice , nothing wrong in that .

 

[PeterA]

@Ron Resnick, do you think any of your amplifiers are what you describe as “neutral“? If so, how do you determine that?

 

[Amir]

Neutral or Natural or …

All these subjective words are about “sound” not about our musical experience.

There is no absolute neutral audio component and this debate never ends.

If you want to analyze the sound the proper/right method is “comparison by contrast” .

Are You On The Road To... Audio Hell? Article By Leonard Norwitz And Peter Qvortrup

Are You On The Road To... Audio Hell? Article By Leonard Norwitz And Peter Qvortrup

www.enjoythemusic.com

If you want to listen to music and the high end is just a tools then you should judge every audio equipment with listening to music and finding which equipments are more expressive.

Romy has a video about this.

Finally I think David’s idea about “natural sound” is more musical and more expressive than most modern sounding systems.

 

[Amir]

what modern sounding system means to me?

Modern sounding systems are more complex (for example modern amplifier design has more stages and more negative feedback) .

Modern sounding systems have better objective measurements.

The priority of designer of modern systems is not musical expression, it is better measurement

 

[bonzo75]

Neutral or Natural or …

All these subjective words are about “sound” not about our musical experience.

There is no absolute neutral audio component and this debate never ends.

If you want to analyze the sound the proper/right method is “comparison by contrast” .

Are You On The Road To... Audio Hell? Article By Leonard Norwitz And Peter Qvortrup

Are You On The Road To... Audio Hell? Article By Leonard Norwitz And Peter Qvortrup

www.enjoythemusic.com

If you want to listen to music and the high end is just a tools then you should judge every audio equipment with listening to music and finding which equipments are more expressive.

Romy has a video about this.

Finally I think David’s idea about “natural sound” is more musical and more expressive than most modern sounding systems.

Actually, then you did not even understand what David said.

Btw, neutrality of a components is required for natural sound, because your record sound won't flow through if the component has a signature. I think you should try to understand what the discussion is rather than simply taking names of people, those on this forum can read what David, Romy, Roy Gregory said rather than read your interpretation of what you think they said.

 

[Amir]

Actually, then you did not even understand what David said.

Btw, neutrality of a components is required for natural sound, because your record sound won't flow through if the component has a signature. I think you should try to understand what the discussion is rather than simply taking names of people, those on this forum can read what David, Romy, Roy Gregory said rather than read your interpretation of what you think they said.

No you are wrong, natural is not neutral , no tube electronics is neutral.

Neutral means the gear has no sound and all tube systems and vintage speakers have their own sound signature. there is no absolute neutral equipment.

Natural means the sound is more human like with less artificial effects.

 

[PeterA]

what modern sounding system means to me?

Modern sounding systems are more complex (for example modern amplifier design has more stages and more negative feedback) .

Modern sounding systems have better objective measurements.

The priority of designer of modern systems is not musical expression, it is better measurement

Hello Amir, how do these differences affect the end result and listening experience of those in the seats in their rooms?

Romy talks about expressiveness. David talks about natural sound and a listening experience similar to what he has when listening to live music. Others talk about the sound they hear.

Expressiveness, listening experience, or sound.

 

[bonzo75]

No you are wrong, natural is not neutral , no tube electronics is neutral.

Actually, I did not even say that natural is neutral. You really are not getting what people are saying as you cannot relate.

 

[hopkins]

Neutral or Natural or …

All these subjective words are about “sound” not about our musical experience.

There is no absolute neutral audio component and this debate never ends.

If you want to analyze the sound the proper/right method is “comparison by contrast” .

Are You On The Road To... Audio Hell? Article By Leonard Norwitz And Peter Qvortrup

Are You On The Road To... Audio Hell? Article By Leonard Norwitz And Peter Qvortrup

www.enjoythemusic.com

If you want to listen to music and the high end is just a tools then you should judge every audio equipment with listening to music and finding which equipments are more expressive.

Romy has a video about this.

Finally I think David’s idea about “natural sound” is more musical and more expressive than most modern sounding systems.

Funny that you mention Peter Qvortrup's article in support for "natural sound" because this is what he has to say about it in his article:

"Listeners claiming an inside track by virtue of having attended the recording session are really responding to other, perhaps unconscious, clues when they report significant similarities between recording session and playback. As previously asserted, no one can possibly know in any meaningful way what is on the master tape or the resulting software, even if they auditioned the playback through the engineer's "reference" monitoring system. Anyone who thinks that there exists some "reference" playback system that sounds just like the live event simply isn't paying attention: or at best doesn't understand how magic works."

 

[Ron Resnick]

There is no neutral.

If there is no neutral, then against what standard is "colored" evaluated?

 

[Ron Resnick]

I don’t want my amps to sound colored. You asked me if I think the ML2s are neutral. I wrote that I don’t know

You wrote: "If there is a character across instruments and recordings, I consider the system or component, if it can be isolated, as being colored. I do not have that impression of Lamm SET amps." (October 30, 2023)


You are welcome to disavow it, but you wrote what you wrote. You cannot wriggle off the hook.

1) You love your ML2s.

2) You don't want your "amps to sound colored."

3) Why are you unwilling to say that you believe the ML2s do not sound colored?

4) If they do not sound colored, how can you not feel that they sound neutral?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Why don’t you answer my questions since you seem to know what it is and how to determine it?

I can answer your question. But my answering your question is not directly relevant to you answering my question.

When you get backed into a corner historically you reply by one or more of evading the question, pretending the question is different than what was asked or asking questions yourself.

 

[Amir]

Dea

Hello Amir, how do these differences affect the end result and listening experience of those in the seats in their rooms?

Romy talks about expressiveness. David talks about natural sound and a listening experience similar to what he has when listening to live music. Others talk about the sound they hear.

Expressiveness, listening experience, or sound.

Dear Peter,

I think it is better if audiophiles forget about the sound and just care about music listening experience.

If you do not enjoy the music then nothing is important about the sound.

I think “Natural sound” is not more close to “live sound”, Actually no audio system is close to live sound but Natural sound is more close to live music listening experience, these are two different things :
1- live music sound
2- live music listening experience

 

[Al M.]

Funny that you mention Peter Qvortrup's article in support for "natural sound" because this is what he has to say about it in his article:

"Listeners claiming an inside track by virtue of having attended the recording session are really responding to other, perhaps unconscious, clues when they report significant similarities between recording session and playback. As previously asserted, no one can possibly know in any meaningful way what is on the master tape or the resulting software, even if they auditioned the playback through the engineer's "reference" monitoring system. Anyone who thinks that there exists some "reference" playback system that sounds just like the live event simply isn't paying attention: or at best doesn't understand how magic works."

Exactly, he says it well. I am always amused when people claim they "know" how a recording should sound.

It always comes back to the Circle of Confusion:

Audio's Circle of Confusion

Audio’s “Circle of Confusion” is a term coined by Floyd Toole [1] that describes the confusion that exists within the audio recording and r...

seanolive.blogspot.com

Even the original sound engineer cannot precisely know what's on the actual tape and how it should sound when reproduced "neutrally" because of all the fIltering through the equipment needed to listen through it, in the studio or otherwise. In that context the question becomes, how do you *know* your reproduction is neutral or not?

 

[Amir]

Many modern systems with best measurements also have coloration so those are not absolute neutral. The problem is coloration of some modern systems is more artificial to our ears for long music listening enjoyment so for this reason David does not like it.

 

[Amir]

Funny that you mention Peter Qvortrup's article in support for "natural sound" because this is what he has to say about it in his article:

"Listeners claiming an inside track by virtue of having attended the recording session are really responding to other, perhaps unconscious, clues when they report significant similarities between recording session and playback. As previously asserted, no one can possibly know in any meaningful way what is on the master tape or the resulting software, even if they auditioned the playback through the engineer's "reference" monitoring system. Anyone who thinks that there exists some "reference" playback system that sounds just like the live event simply isn't paying attention: or at best doesn't understand how magic works."

No you are wrong, please read my post again.

I do not say “natural sound” means more contrast, for example copper vs silver cable, David prefer copper but copper does not have more contrast.
David prefer copper because silver has artificial coloration.

Please do not mix.

I said if you want talk about the sound you should read about comparison by contrast method.

The admin closes my topic (Audio Critique) I described it there