Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[andromedaaudio]

Since i went to munich 3 times and other shows lately all my upgrade itch basically faded away .

I never read reviews anymore , high end audio is evolving more on getting the best tapes not much more .

My Ls are under review at the moment in a relatively modest set up .
I love to see a reviewer go all out in his / hers personal system, however its out of my control.

 

[microstrip]

(...) One manufacturer says sure, because he/she appreciates that without some kind of comparison it is largely a fake marketing event. The other manufacturer declines the comparison and withdraws the invitation.

How would you evaluate this situation, and what would you think of each of these two manufacturers?

I would applaud the manufacturer who declines the comparison. He is showing that he is a responsible manufacturer that has dealer network which will deal with individual requirements and individual client bias and whims.

BTW, listening to top equipment with our own reference recordings in optimum different systems can show a lot about it - but surely we must be experienced listeners. I suggest you to be more careful about using the word "fake". IMO, YMMV.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Why do you believe this is, Mike?

Let's say I am interested in purchasing a new flagship DAC in the $300,000 range. There are two candidates in which I am interested, and both of these DAC manufacturers have invited me to their respective factories for a serious and leisurely audition.

Let's say I believe that as a matter of analytical and methodological integrity hearing an unfamiliar DAC in an unfamiliar system in an unfamiliar factory listening room which has been optimized for that manufacturer's flagship DAC tells me almost nothing. So I ask each manufacturer if I may bring with me my incumbent $25,000 DAC to compare it directly in his/her listening room with the flagship DAC I am considering purchasing.

One manufacturer says sure, because he/she appreciates that without some kind of comparison it is really nothing but a largely meaningless marketing event. The other manufacturer declines the comparison and withdraws the invitation.

How would you evaluate this situation? What would you think of each of these two manufacturers?

i've been an active player in the top dac wars for decades. and this is just how it looks.

potentially what does an uber dac manufacturer have to gain from a proper (debatable what that actually means) head to head either with another uber dac, or an actual vinyl pressing? and what do they have to lose?

on the scale the "lose side" is much greater. especially if it's the published manufacturer sanctioned written word. and if it was my 3-5 year development investment it would be something to be avoided. dealers are not asking for it, they don't want it either. reviews are to wet the appetite and get the word out. not to close the deal. if/when dealers ask for it then it might happen.

OTOH they don't mind customer head to heads as those can be discounted effectively as need be.

why was there never an MSB Select II review? yet it was the top dac dog for 4-8 years. they had nothing to gain.....and plenty to lose. Wadax was the new kid on the block and had to make a spash. reviews are a 3rd party sales tool. they have to stay on script. Sales 101.

personally i'm all about actual solid compare references. the more the merrier. exactly opposite of manufacturers.

 

[Lee]

What's an "audiophile cope"?

We spent about $500k extending, rebuilding and refurnishing our house, of which the electrical work was about $25k (excluding the sound/light system throughout the house). The acoustic work in the new music/reading room, previously the dining room, cost about $4k and the dedicated electrical spur about $300.

I went from a large non-dedicated living room with a broken single phase power supply on a ring main to a smaller dedicated treated room on its own phase from a new 3-phase power supply. Without changing any components, the improvement was dramatic.

Having a much better listening space made it worthwhile changing some of the hifi (the speakers have not changed). It would have been a waste of money and of no value to do those changes in the old listening space.

Good hifi is only worthwhile if you have a suitable place to use it. The electrical infrastructure is a significant part of that, especially in the UK where we use rings mains.

I think it’s a great strategy to get good power in so I applaud you for that. My objection was to your comments on the Puritan besting much more expensive gear and other more affordable gear beating more expensive gear.

I don’t believe having a great power foundation negates other design elements in more expensive products. A comparison of different components all on a good power foundation would be more convincing.

Puritan is in the middle of an audio hype cycle. Does it beat a Shunyata Everest? Does it beat a Synergistic PowerCell?

One may not want to spend $10-20k for a conditioner but maybe they are better in some ways.

 

[andromedaaudio]

One manufacturer says sure, because he/she appreciates that without some kind of comparison it is really nothing but a largely meaningless marketing event.

This would be my man .



High end audio mostly exists of the latter unfortunately

 

[Lee]

potentially what does an uber dac manufacturer have to gain from a proper (debatable what that actually means) head to head either with another uber dac, or an actual vinyl pressing? and what do they have to lose?

on the scale the "lose side" is much greater. especially if it's the published manufacturer sanctioned written word. and if it was my 3-5 year development investment it would be something to be avoided. dealers are not asking for it, they don't want it either. reviews are to wet the appetite and get the word out. not to close the deal. if/when dealers ask for it then it might happen.

We felt at TAS that our job was to get people to go audition the better products. It’s up to the dealers to close the sale.

Reviewing audio gear is a tricky business in a very small industry with loads of political considerations. Especially when the reviewer conclusions are subjective by nature.

Reviews are always best used to create a short list for audition.

Secondly, it’s best to cultivate a few reviewers you feel are honest in opinion and have similar sonic playback values.

 

[Rensselaer]

I don’t understand reviewing a new model against an older model, why? I can tell within the first few seconds of stepping into a demonstration whether whatever is playing is worth my time or not. Quality is evident right off the bat. If you step into a room and start looking for the band playing live, probably worth sitting down for a listen.

 

[Elliot G.]

Reviewing audio gear is a tricky business in a very small industry with loads of political considerations. Especially when the reviewer conclusions are subjective by nature.

IMHO we have moved from the "review" to the report.
No goal is like taking a trip to nowhere without GPS or a map.

Lee TAS is a profit making organization. Its primary goal is to make money. I do not believe that their goal is to help dealers or manufacturers sorry I don't buy that. That may have ben true pre advertising but it isn't now

 

[Ron Resnick]

i've been an active player in the top dac wars for decades. and this is just how it looks.

potentially what does an uber dac manufacturer have to gain from a proper (debatable what that actually means) head to head either with another uber dac,

In the fact pattern I postulated each DAC manufacturer may gain a sale of an extremely limited production, very expensive DAC. In my example the visiting client would be happy to sign a nondisclosure agreement, so the manufacturer is comfortable that no one will know the factory visit occurred, or that the comparison occurred, or that the prospective client preferred his/her far less expensive incumbent DAC.

 

[Lee]

IMHO we have moved from the "review" to the report.
No goal is like taking a trip to nowhere without GPS or a map.

Lee TAS is a profit making organization. Its primary goal is to make money. I do not believe that their goal is to help dealers or manufacturers sorry I don't buy that. That may have ben true pre advertising but it isn't now

The advertising dollars are the lifeblood of Nextscreen earnings. If dealers or manufacturers go away then so do Nextscreen (TAS, hifi+) profits.

So I would make the case that they are quite aligned.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

In the fact pattern I postulated each DAC manufacturer may gain a sale of an extremely limited production, very expensive DAC. In my example the visiting client would be happy to sign a nondisclosure agreement, so the manufacturer is comfortable that no one will know the factory visit occurred, or that the comparison occurred, or that the prospective client preferred his/her far less expensive incumbent DAC.

two people can keep a secret if one is deceased.

jokes on you if you think an audiophile buying an uber dac is not going to talk about it. and then talk some more.

and then who is going to furnish the other reference dac?

 

[Elliot G.]

two people can keep a secret if one is deceased.

jokes on you if you think an audiophile buying an uber dac is not going to talk about it. and then talk some more.

and then who is going to furnish the other reference dac?

LOL that is great Mike

 

[PeterA]

as much as i personally value in-system head to head compares with gear from different manufacturers, i realize that most manufacturers would prefer not to have that happen to their new dac flagship. dac manufacturers even don't want serious direct head to head vinyl compares. you only read general vinyl/dac comments. not specific pressing/dac comments. so it will rarely happen and that is understandable. which is one reason i had to do it myself.

with analog components it's a whole different review ball game as those head to head compares are ingrained in the reviewing culture. who wants to read an analog review without any references? no one.

Mike, I always appreciate you sharing your perspective when it comes to comparative comments about your various turntable set ups and your SOTA digital. And when people argue that digital keeps improving, you’re one of the first to always point out that vinyl does also.

Regarding whether or not something is worth it, I wonder if people make that judgement before they have truly optimized the potential of what they already have through exhaustive set up experiments. I am finding that this is a major part of the hobby for me and perhaps some others.

 

[Elliot G.]

So I would make the case that they are quite aligned.

yes they are aligned because of financial needs not they are doing some Nobel. You nor anyone will ever convince me that it is a level and impartial playing field.

 

[Elliot G.]

and then who is going to furnish the other reference dac?

Exactly . Huge major political forces at work here. Certain things go to certain writers. This is not accidental folks.

 

[microstrip]

(...) And when people argue that digital keeps improving, you’re one of the first to always point out that vinyl does also. (...)

Curious that we don't read that tape keeps improving significantly. Why?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Curious that we don't read that tape keeps improving significantly. Why?

i've posted about it quite a bit......

my tapes went from 40% better than my vinyl, to 70% better than my vinyl, even with my vinyl getting better. when i sold my Studer's and got the ATR-102/MR-70. it's astonishing with good tapes. my vinyl improvements over time had pushed up into the tape realm more and more.

but there is much less broad interest compared to dacs. and i have not posted about it this year. much lass commercial activity with tape. and almost zero dealer push.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I have been to 3 years of munich its all about digital mostly with vinyl second .
I havent heard any real good tape there

 

[Lee]

Mike, I always appreciate you sharing your perspective when it comes to comparative comments about your various turntable set ups and your SOTA digital. And when people argue that digital keeps improving, you’re one of the first to always point out that vinyl does also.

Regarding whether or not something is worth it, I wonder if people make that judgement before they have truly optimized the potential of what they already have through exhaustive set up experiments. I am finding that this is a major part of the hobby for me and perhaps some others.

This is why I have been focusing on system setup the past two years. There is so much improvement possible. And there are so many expensive systems set up terribly.

 

[Lee]

Curious that we don't read that tape keeps improving significantly. Why?

It’s a really tiny market.