Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

You can't describe the 3D imaging effect, but as a dealer you can demonstrate it in your shop with the gear you sell, and the rest of the audiophile world has no clue. So now we've reached fairy tale time. :D
So, you are denying that stereo equipment, which is designed to produce a stereo effect (creating an image), can produce a 3D image and what RexP has said he (and most other audiophiles) can demonstrate is a fairy tale? Really?? What are you smoking man!? You are trying to cloud the subject by insinuating he has some kind of hidden agenda to sell gear (I don't know if he is even still an audio dealer or not)...not really cool.

I guess you can comfortably do away with one loudspeaker and just listen in mono from now on...
 
So, you are denying that...
None of this did I say or write. Read carefully please. By the way, it would also help if you weren't so closed and would accept arguments; that would at least be important for an open discussion, even if you don't want to treat others respectfully.
 
I could force myself to try to imagine images in front of me, but I’m really just hearing sounds sprayed out in front of me coming from what seem to be specific locations in space. They have scale and volume, and location and expanding energy from an area of origin. They do seem dimensional, but they’re not really images unless I force myself to imagine them.
I don't have to use any imagination in my system. The various images in the soundstage are quite visceral, per Blumlein's theory.
 
None of this did I say or write. Read carefully please. By the way, it would also help if you weren't so closed and would accept arguments; that would at least be important for an open discussion, even if you don't want to treat others respectfully.
Which arguments am I supposed to accept from you? Please be specific. IMO, you were not very respectful to RexP's observations because you called them "fairy tales" and the insinuation that it was related to sales. You might want to think about you write as well...
 
I wouldn't associate precision with thinking. Humans are too error-prone for that. Precision is when a machine creates a part that fits perfectly or very rarely breaks.
Most of the time, it's a mistake: people develop a precision part, but after testing, you realize it's not that good. The machine isn't to blame.
No, precision is when each replicate is almost exactly the same. Whether it is correctly sized to fit well and work properly is accuracy. When accuracy and precision are both high then the things work as intended.
 
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A vague image now? So vague in fact that it does not have color or edges. It is as clear an image as can be created by a bunch of sounds.
What are you talking about Peter? Honestly, you pick up on one word, vague, and run wild with it. Who said anything about color or edges? I said with a good recording it should have noticeable structure (read again my description of a piano image).

Note that I said, "at least" before the word vague. Of course a mental image based on sound is not going to be as sharp as taking a photograph with a Nikon camera. Think more like an impressionist painting and you are getting closer to the point.

Can we just say that your current system doesn't image so well and that you are ok with this? Did your previous systems with Magico speakers and Pass amps image more precisely and/or accurately?
 
IMO, you were not very respectful to RexP's observations because you called them ...
Nice attempt to turn perpetrators into victims

You've never heard 3D imaging, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, you can remain blissfully ignorant.
 
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Two completely different worlds collide here, and they are rather incompatible, as can be seen from the discussion and some emotional outbursts.

The technically inclined side knows that playback quality depends on technical factors and parameters.

The other side follows individual emotions and beliefs and even denies the technical side the ability to hear and understand music, forgetting that we all pursue this hobby solely so we can hear music in good quality. This side although does not have any idea of how the other side perceives, interprets, and processes music. One's own individual and highly subjective preferences are then confused with a supposedly universally valid perception, and psychoacoustic effects are rejected as something fundamentally bad or declared nonexistent.

Music is always something emotional; Both in playing and in consuming. This starts with the choice of music and extends far beyond the way we want to understand that music. But if perception is primarily driven by the amygdala, hippocampus, and thalamus, then no attempt at technical explanation will help; it will only exacerbate the emotional outbursts.
That's a shame, and actually contradicts the usefulness of a forum, but obviously it can't be changed.

So I'm curious to see how you guys plan to achieve a meaningful description of 3D imaging, that everyone will understand in the same way; on the last pages this has not been successful
Which camp do you fall into?

What would you propose for a meaningful description of 3D imaging? I think other than a vocal minority, most of us get it and understand what is meant by the term. We could go back to trying to define what the meaning of "is" is, but that is probably not helpful...

If I mention 3D imaging to any of my audiophile, reviewer and dealer friends they all have a pretty close to the same idea of what is meant and when listening together we are able to agree not only if a system has it to some degree but also to what degree it possesses it and which combination is superior. Not that hard really...
 
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No, precision is when each replicate is almost exactly the same. Whether it is correctly sized to fit well and work properly is accuracy. When accuracy and precision are both high then the things work as intended.
Hair-splitting over word definition...really come on. If you can't even agree on words, then things get extremely difficult about sound. As the saying goes, ask 10 high-end people, you'll get 11 opinions. I'd rather go into the garden and drink a wheat beer in 36 degrees in the shade.bye
 
You can't describe the 3D imaging effect, but as a dealer you can demonstrate it in your shop with the gear you sell, and the rest of the audiophile world has no clue. So now we've reached fairy tale time. :D
Plenty of members here have systems that produce 3D imaging, you just liked Atmosphere's post about the visceral imaging he's getting from his system....
 
Hair-splitting over word definition...really come on. If you can't even agree on words, then things get extremely difficult about sound. As the saying goes, ask 10 high-end people, you'll get 11 opinions. I'd rather go into the garden and drink a wheat beer in 36 degrees in the shade.bye
The difference between precision and accuracy is not hair splitting...it is fundamental to analytical science. 10 out of 10 scientists would agree.
 
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The difference between precision and accuracy is not hair splitting...it is fundamental to analytical science. 10 out of 10 scientists would agree.

I am one of those 10, if you ask me ;)
 
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A 3-D soundstage occurs when the spatial cues on the recording are presented to the listener. The cues are generally reverberations or echoes that our brain uses to calculate a sense of space. These cues must be reproduced without so much distortion, alteration or truncation that the psychoacoustic requirements are met for the brain to calculate this space. This results in suspension of disbelief so the listener can experience the music similar to how they would hear it if they were at the recording venue. This is the "You Are There" presentation.

OTOH, we have the "They Are Here" presentation in which spatial cues formed by the playback system dominate instead of the spatial cues in the recording. The psychoacoustic requirements the brain needs to process space no longer perceives the recording venue because either the system fails to playback the cues, or the room acoustic cues are dominant, or some of both. You can still get precise imaging, but timbre will be negatively affected as well, because timbre depends on similar cues as space, the measured decay of sound, how the reverberations or notes formed by an instrument of vocal trails off. The decay of sound is often truncated by both the recording and playback systems, so in order to preserve the decay and achieve a "You Are There" presentation, we must maximize resolution and have a true "High Fidelity" system.

IME, those who prefer a subjective sound such as trying to recreate what they have heard live rather than simply trying to maximize fidelity usually come around to the true definition of High Fidelity eventually, because to do otherwise reduces the "You Are There" effect, which as I mentioned previously, is the number 1 driver of subjective preference IF the listener is presented with a sound that achieves it.

While "You Are There" requires crossing a psychoacoustic barrier, in other words the brain must be given enough information that it can comfortably fill in any gaps, the more those gaps are filled, the more successful the illusion.

Further, the best systems are able to actually extend the truncated decay of sound so that it matches what the brain expects to hear more precisely. This is what the multi-channel proponents miss. They try to achieve this by adding more speakers to fill-in the soundstage, but what we really need is proper decay. Extending decay can be done via electromechanical feedback (this is what racks, footers, tube dampers and phono mats and devices do), or it can be extended via some acoustic devices. The subjective preference for vinyl and tubes can be partially explained by the fact they are electromechanical feedback devices moreso than other parts of the system.

This is also why folks who don't think AC power or cables make a difference can't achieve a "You Are There" presentation, without the entire system working to a high level, without true "High Fidelity" the decay is further truncated and falls below the levels required psychoacoustically, so you end up with a lower level of spatial and timbral performance. Similarly, those who think an extremely "live" room sounds the best will not achieve it either. A poor waterfall plot with too much room decay is a major issue, those room effects will often dominate over what's on the recording.
 
Two completely different worlds collide here, and they are rather incompatible, as can be seen from the discussion and some emotional outbursts.

The technically inclined side knows that playback quality depends on technical factors and parameters.

The other side follows individual emotions and beliefs and even denies the technical side the ability to hear and understand music, forgetting that we all pursue this hobby solely so we can hear music in good quality. This side although does not have any idea of how the other side perceives, interprets, and processes music. One's own individual and highly subjective preferences are then confused with a supposedly universally valid perception, and psychoacoustic effects are rejected as something fundamentally bad or declared nonexistent.

This distinction is absurd, and a complete "cliché".

Having technical knowledge does not prevent one from simply enjoying the music, and experiencing "emotions".

Discussions become sterile when people have an agenda, and come up with complete BS, in bad faith, to support it.

A brilliant example can be found here:


"The depth of image that many audiophiles seek is a totally different sound field concept from the depth that occurs with live acoustic music performed in a natural acoustic space. The hi fi model pushes the music in the midrange toward the back of a blank sound field. In a live acoustic music listening experience, we hear the sound field as a fully sound-pressurized space with fundamental and harmonic information reflecting in a seemingly chaotic fashion off performance venue’s boundaries. Our ears, naturally fine-tuned to time and spatial cues, are able to define the scale and characteristics of the performance space if everything is in balance — a far more exciting and engaging perspective than the hi fi standard. In a highly evolved home music listening system and listening room, we should be able to hear the fully sound-pressurized space of the performance venue as captured on the recording. If everything is right, the speakers should provide a direct reflection of the timing, space, frequency, and amplitude information received by a recording microphone. This speaker/microphone mirror can easily be assessed by listening to a recording that uses minimalist microphone placement with little post-production manipulation applied."

Complete nonsense. The agenda (ironically coming from a cable vendor) is to oppose "misguided audiophiles" (following hi-fi "standards"???) versus "music connaisseurs"...(who will enthusiastically purchase her 50k$ cables for a really "musical" experience - LOL).
 
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What are you smoking man!?
May I suggest that this information appear in signature lines? And be very, very specific: smoking, snorting, imbibing, etc. Just as important as the equipment used to achieve "real" 3D.
 
A 3-D soundstage occurs when the spatial cues on the recording are presented to the listener. The cues are generally reverberations or echoes that our brain uses to calculate a sense of space. These cues must be reproduced without so much distortion, alteration or truncation that the psychoacoustic requirements are met for the brain to calculate this space. This results in suspension of disbelief so the listener can experience the music similar to how they would hear it if they were at the recording venue. This is the "You Are There" presentation.

OTOH, we have the "They Are Here" presentation in which spatial cues formed by the playback system dominate instead of the spatial cues in the recording. The psychoacoustic requirements the brain needs to process space no longer perceives the recording venue because either the system fails to playback the cues, or the room acoustic cues are dominant, or some of both. You can still get precise imaging, but timbre will be negatively affected as well, because timbre depends on similar cues as space, the measured decay of sound, how the reverberations or notes formed by an instrument of vocal trails off. The decay of sound is often truncated by both the recording and playback systems, so in order to preserve the decay and achieve a "You Are There" presentation, we must maximize resolution and have a true "High Fidelity" system.

IME, those who prefer a subjective sound such as trying to recreate what they have heard live rather than simply trying to maximize fidelity usually come around to the true definition of High Fidelity eventually, because to do otherwise reduces the "You Are There" effect, which as I mentioned previously, is the number 1 driver of subjective preference IF the listener is presented with a sound that achieves it.

While "You Are There" requires crossing a psychoacoustic barrier, in other words the brain must be given enough information that it can comfortably fill in any gaps, the more those gaps are filled, the more successful the illusion.

Further, the best systems are able to actually extend the truncated decay of sound so that it matches what the brain expects to hear more precisely. This is what the multi-channel proponents miss. They try to achieve this by adding more speakers to fill-in the soundstage, but what we really need is proper decay. Extending decay can be done via electromechanical feedback (this is what racks, footers, tube dampers and phono mats and devices do), or it can be extended via some acoustic devices. The subjective preference for vinyl and tubes can be partially explained by the fact they are electromechanical feedback devices moreso than other parts of the system.

This is also why folks who don't think AC power or cables make a difference can't achieve a "You Are There" presentation, without the entire system working to a high level, without true "High Fidelity" the decay is further truncated and falls below the levels required psychoacoustically, so you end up with a lower level of spatial and timbral performance. Similarly, those who think an extremely "live" room sounds the best will not achieve it either. A poor waterfall plot with too much room decay is a major issue, those room effects will often dominate over what's on the recording.
There are cases though where the “They are here” is the correct presentation. This is particularly the case when instruments are close miked and little to no reverb is added to synthetically create space. If your system puts such records at a distance and closer to a “you are there “ perspective this can also be wrong.
I am thinking of a specific trick B&W and some other mfgs. Did with a dip in the presence region of a speaker’s frequency response, the so-called gundry dip, that pushed images further back in the soundstage.
I guess my point is that a system should be both “you are there” and “they are here” depending on the recording. It shouldn’t bias either way.

That said I am a huge proponent of maximizing a systems decay…so much so that one of my friends jokes I like the decaying more than living! I tell him the life in music is all in the decay. It is harder to get right than just about anything else in audio. I have found this is largely due to electronics, cables and power choices. Speakers above even a pretty basic level will capture space well if powered properly.
 
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...I use vibraphone and marimba tracks because of the very obvious decay characteristics, and although other instruments present this way too, it's very obvious (to me) if things are working when I hear decay from vibes and marimbas.
 
What are you talking about Peter? Honestly, you pick up on one word, vague, and run wild with it. Who said anything about color or edges? I said with a good recording it should have noticeable structure (read again my description of a piano image).

Note that I said, "at least" before the word vague. Of course a mental image based on sound is not going to be as sharp as taking a photograph with a Nikon camera. Think more like an impressionist painting and you are getting closer to the point.

Can we just say that your current system doesn't image so well and that you are ok with this? Did your previous systems with Magico speakers and Pass amps image more precisely and/or accurately?

Actually, Brad, I think we agree on what we are describing and you’re just calling it an image and I am not. I appreciate the description of structure. I guess I’m using to literal a meaning of the word image. I think we’re both talking about a mental construct based on both what we are hearing and our memories and experience with those instruments.

I have a better sense of being in the presence of the musicians and their instruments with this system than I had with my old system. I usually have the sense that I am there at the performance with the musicians in front of me and the music and sound all around me.

I think where I object is that I used to have certain products in my system that enhanced image outlines and edges, and I have heard systems with pinpoint imaging. In my mind, those are enhancements and move the experience of the system away from natural. I don’t hear that or experience it when listening to live music.

Perhaps I should refer to what I experience as a palpable presence. How vague it is I suppose is open to interpretation. It is certainly nothing like a visual image on a screen or in a book it is a virtual image in my mind created from sounds.

After all of this back-and-forth, I think we are more or less saying the same thing. I just prefer not to use the language because I find it misleading.
 
There are cases though where the “They are here” is the correct presentation. This is particularly the case when instruments are close miked and little to no reverb is added to synthetically create space. If your system puts such records at a distance and closer to a “you are there “ perspective this can also be wrong.
I am thinking of a specific trick B&W and some other mfgs. Did with a dip in the presence region of a speaker’s frequency response, the so-called gundry dip, that pushed images further back in the soundstage.
I guess my point is that a system should be both “you are there” and “they are here” depending on the recording. It shouldn’t bias either way.

That said I am a huge proponent of maximizing a systems decay…so much so that one of my friends jokes I like the decaying more than living! I tell him the life in music is all in the decay. It is harder to get right than just about anything else in audio. I have found this is largely due to electronics, cables and power choices. Speakers above even a pretty basic level will capture space well if powered properly.

Agreed, of course the system should add the least of its own character to the sound so if the recording simply doesn't contain spatial cues from the recording venue, and if the engineer didn't add any, then you get imaging without much of a soundstage.

I think the ability of the system to reproduce and even extend decay is a large part of what makes a system truly high end, and it's rare to find as it's not really measurable, which makes it less obvious. Other factors like frequency extension, dispersion pattern, room decay and dynamics are a lot more obvious and measurable.
 
...I use vibraphone and marimba tracks because of the very obvious decay characteristics, and although other instruments present this way too, it's very obvious (to me) if things are working when I hear decay from vibes and marimbas.
Me too! I love vibraphone and especially Gary Burton records. Check out Chick Corea and Gary Burton live in Zurich 1979 on ECM. Also Cannoball Adderly and Milt Jackson “Things are getting better” on Riverside records. Finally, a newer one is Joe Chambers “Samba de Maracatu “ from 2021 on Blue Note.
 

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