IS there an absolute sound?

[Elliot G.]

When you go to see live music you experiece the proformance on many levels. There is the sound, the ambience the sigts the smells etc. When at home you only have one the sound. We are talking abiout tow vary differnent things in my opinion. I want my system to be set up and my choices in assembling it to be as honest and faithful to the sound of the real instruments and vocals as I can afford. I need to do this first. Secondly when I listen to music I want o enjoy the program that I am playing. I want my system to be a time machine. I want it to transport me to the time and place at which the recording was made. I know I can not bring the orchestra or the rock band into my house. In order to do this everything in the path needs to be as close to the "absolute sound" as I can get it. If a solo paino or guitar is wrong, if a voice is wrong then the whole will be wrong.
I am talking about trying to establish a set of simple guidelines that will help us all to do this. I am not questioning your choices of music, or colors, or the chair you listen in. I am not suggesting that what you are wrong and that I am correct. I am however suggesting that we stop pretending that everthing is the same and that if I like it then it is correct.
Maybe my idea about a series of recordings is not the way but the path we travel now does little to help anyone make an educated decision.
If you read from this site. Many for example here loved the ARC Aida room. Many liked the Q7, many hated it. Is this all personal opinion or is there more to learn here?

 

[cjfrbw]

How can you standardize an "absolute sound" until you have standardized the computers between the ears that process the sound?

As with the other senses, everybody has different ways of processing sensory input. Vision demonstrates people with different kinds of color perception, near sighted, far sighted, scotomas, cataracts, ability to perceive depth etc. etc. These variations are far easier to test in vision than hearing.

Hearing is intimately by reflex associated with emotion and vision, which is also in all likelihood varies broadly from individual to individual.

These differences in hearing are seldom addressed. I am pretty convinced that many arguments on audio boards are between individuals who are hearing and processing sound in different ways, one can hear something and the other can't, so they solipsistically face off against each other as if one is "correct" and the other person isn't.

Also, I find that the "absolute sound" is a total pretense that one individual, the audio critic, is the "golden ear" who can define what sound is for everybody else and tell what components can do it, a total snobby and involutional failure of reason.

Trying to get a consensus of what an "absolute sound" is by poll would merely be a vote amongst differing perceptions, reactions and standards.

Some people I can trust through experience and comparison, but it is only a rough gauge on a case by case basis compared with my own interpretation of my perceptions.

Also, some guys who argue vehemently may just not be able to hear the same things, or some things not at all i.e. tone, depth cues, frequency relations, so for those who hear "less" there is not point in wasting time and money on certain kinds of audio products, especially if they are expensive.

Obviously there are "divvies" with all the senses, including hearing, but trying to figure out who is and isn't and whether it applies to my own hearing input is well nigh wretchedly difficult.

Also, there is the political correctness of not attacking somebody else's hearing, which is tantamount to attacking their appearance, intelligence, social status, etc.etc. The "absolute sound" attempts to generate a false abstraction that does not exist while isolating a class of self anointed gift listeners.

 

[garylkoh]

Elliot, Peter makes a good point that it is the experience. I may not agree to use your recordings because unless you can bring all manufacturers/ designers together to experience the recording (and many may not even agree that it recording experience is the absolute) the recordings are meaningless.

Even when you say that the piano was recorded in a 20' x 30' room - I would ask how recorded and what treatment the room had. If the piano was close-miked, then it is no longer valid. If an ambiosonic mic was used, then the playback needs to be ambiosonic. Then, if you have a binaural recording done, then you need to listen on headphones.

The art of recording, mastering, etc. is designed to make pleasant, enjoyable music. Years of improvements in miking techniques, mixing and mastering have resulted in making a close-mic'ed recording sound as "live" as possible. These are all artistic creations. And the attempt to create a class of "absolute sound" recordings would be as difficult as to create a set of "absolute paintings".

It is possible to create a set of absolute colors (eg. Pantone), just as it is possible to have a set of absolute frequencies and a flat frequency response. However, once you mix those colors together to paint a landscape, or mix that set of frequencies together in time to create a recording, there is no way to measure "perfection".

 

[Elliot G.]

so then what you give up Gary? Why would I want to buy your speaker if you are not trying to build something faithful to the absolute sound?
Peter has his job to do and he can choose to do it as he and his employers see fit.
If I told you all the facts about the recording or even better to get one of our useless organizations to create a panel to discuss and make some decisions about this would be better than ther Chaos we have today.
Why is ewveryone so afraid of trying to define what it is we are trying to accomplish?
I truly don't get it.
Gary why are reviwers the last word in our business do all of you need that attaboy pat on the back that much? If there are no standards then why is anyone's opinion any better than anyone lese?
Bose says they make the worlds best speakers, are they correct? Without any guidellines their product is as valid as yours...

 

[garylkoh]

I'm not saying that I have given up - I have my set of recordings that I have experienced. You have your set of recordings that you have experienced. But it is difficult to to reconcile your set of experiences with my set of experiences.

When I design, I design to my set of references. When someone listens to my speakers using their set of references, then they compare what they hear and what they expect with what they hear through my speakers and what they expected.

As an example, many times I have played my "absolute sound" recording of violins, and people have said that it sounds "ear bleeding". But play it to a violinist, and he may say that it's "too soft". Who is right?

 

[Elliot G.]

I'm not saying that I have given up - I have my set of recordings that I have experienced. You have your set of recordings that you have experienced. But it is difficult to to reconcile your set of experiences with my set of experiences.

When I design, I design to my set of references. When someone listens to my speakers using their set of references, then they compare what they hear and what they expect with what they hear through my speakers and what they expected.

As an example, many times I have played my "absolute sound" recording of violins, and people have said that it sounds "ear bleeding". But play it to a violinist, and he may say that it's "too soft". Who is right?

If the recording you are playing is truly the sound of a violin and you know that it is then that is the answer. If a world renowned chef makes you a dish and you tell him it needs ketchup he calls you a moron. Audio has to set the standards and be the experts. We have turned that job to people who are reviewers or consumers many of which are NOT qualified to do such. This is why we have the chaos we have. This is why the need to change everything every year. I go back a long time Gary. There can't be 100 references all different. When does it end? Right now we are on track for 250k speakers and to be totally honest this race to the "top" just makes everything more expensive.
The IRS andthen Gen 1 were around before this insanity took off. Yet no one even mentions them. Are the speakers of today that much closer to the absolute Sound??? Intersesting question?
If so or not by what standards? Oh yeah there are non

 

[garylkoh]

If the recording you are playing is truly the sound of a violin and you know that it is then that is the answer. If a world renowned chef makes you a dish and you tell him it needs ketchup he calls you a moron. Audio has to set the standards and be the experts. We have turned that job to people who are reviewers or consumers many of which are NOT qualified to do such. This is why we have the chaos we have. This is why the need to change everything every year. I go back a long time Gary. There can't be 100 references all different. When does it end? Right now we are on track for 250k speakers and to be totally honest this race to the "top" just makes everything more expensive.
The IRS andthen Gen 1 were around before this insanity took off. Yet no one even mentions them. Are the speakers of today that much closer to the absolute Sound??? Intersesting question?
If so or not by what standards? Oh yeah there are non

The problem is whether it can ever be generally be accepted as "absolute sound". Even the world renowned chefs cannot make an absolute dish - otherwise, every top restaurant would taste the same.

The chaos we have is because the "absolute sound" cannot be defined because people have different life experiences especially where music is concerned. Even listening to "live" music is not live. Almost every experience we have is with amplified music. When we go to a jazz pub, a live concert, it's all amplified through commercial PA systems - and sometimes using cheap mics.

If we allow for this, then the "absolute sound" of "female vocals" through a high-end system would sound like "live" through the ubiquitous $100 Shure vocal microphone. Once you've heard the same singer recorded with a Neumann ribbon mic, you'll realize that unless you've heard the singer live un-amplified, you still don't have the absolute sound.

IMO no one mentions the IRS or the Genesis 1 because they don't sound like anything anyone expects. Close-miked violins can be ear-bleeding through them. Trumpets make you jump out of your skin. They don't sound pleasant. They don't sound, period - which also makes them impossible to review because reviewers don't have a sound to assign to them, and then there's nothing to say.

 

[Elliot G.]

The problem is whether it can ever be generally be accepted as "absolute sound". Even the world renowned chefs cannot make an absolute dish - otherwise, every top restaurant would taste the same.

The chaos we have is because the "absolute sound" cannot be defined because people have different life experiences especially where music is concerned. Even listening to "live" music is not live. Almost every experience we have is with amplified music. When we go to a jazz pub, a live concert, it's all amplified through commercial PA systems - and sometimes using cheap mics.

If we allow for this, then the "absolute sound" of "female vocals" through a high-end system would sound like "live" through the ubiquitous $100 Shure vocal microphone. Once you've heard the same singer recorded with a Neumann ribbon mic, you'll realize that unless you've heard the singer live un-amplified, you still don't have the absolute sound.

IMO no one mentions the IRS or the Genesis 1 because they don't sound like anything anyone expects. Close-miked violins can be ear-bleeding through them. Trumpets make you jump out of your skin. They don't sound pleasant. They don't sound, period - which also makes them impossible to review because reviewers don't have a sound to assign to them, and then there's nothing to say.

Gary,
I am sorry but that is just excuses. Your saying that no standards and no guidelines are all the choices there are. Something is better than nothing. You are allowing anyone to be an expert and to judge. If you dont try then there are no experts. If there are no experts then anything goes. I have spent my entire adult life doing this. I have worked with many of the worlds best designers and companies. They all are for the most part afraid of offending anyone so they don't speak out.
When the guy of f the street who has no background tells Danile Boulud that he doesn't know how to cook I can guarantee you no one takes his comments with any degree of seriousness.
I have never been afraid to question and voice my opinion whether it was to the designer or the reviewers. HP and I have had many battles over the 30 years we know each other. Without trying things will only remain a free for all . We are not getting intot he main stream. Audio is not something that liuxury buyers NEED to have, ask yourself why? I think a large part is there are no widely know brand names that says this si the "best" The only best propel know is Bose! Sorry but true. I think a large part is this Industry has become too much of a hobby. No experts just a bunch of weird expensive stuff that few understand. This is the voice of clients not mine. The buy Mercedes or Patek etc because it is the best and they have faith they are buying something great. They always are looking for the audio reason to buy, just telling them it sounds good is not enough.
We need to find a better way and instead of looking for reasons to say no perhaps you should spend sometime looking for a way to say yes.

 

[garylkoh]

Elliot, I am not making excuses. Read my posts - I have my absolute sound. I am saying that to get that accepted is going to be difficult if not impossible because every designer has their own experience and they will have a different idea of what is the absolute sound. If you run a store, your customers are relying on your recommendation, and if they like your absolute sound, then that's what is best for them and they have faith in you.

My customers buy my speakers because they have faith in me. Alon's customers or Dave's customers have faith in them and they buy his absolute sound. If you send me your absolute sound recordings, how do I know what I am hearing is what you are hearing?

 

[Elliot G.]

I must say that I am really disappointed in you. A company that makes expensive products and that thinks they are representing the state of the art is resistant to a challenge to see if what they makes really cuts it.
If even the clients had something to use when thye go to listen that was done corectly and they knew that the Industry endorsed it would be a valuable tool. They all want it even if they don't know to ask for it.
Instead of us making it better for the end users we want to make it as exclusive, and confusing as possible.
Let us argue about all the minute reasons that we can't produce some real, simple, fun, guidelines to help everyone make better products and to help make better decisions. Instead let us worry about the mic cable and the brand of guitar strings.
Thsi is terminal audiophiliia. We shall worry about evn what we dont know about.
I give you an expert making a state of the art recording of a simple event and I get a million reasons why it wont sound like a REAL guitar.
I guess we can't trest drive two cars since we can't agree on the road size, or the gas brand.
Wait I can't choose which steak I like better becasue I can't decide which knife to use.

 

[garylkoh]

I can't seem to get through to you..... so, tell you what. You post your "absolute sound" tracks here on the forum. I'll post my "absolute sound" tracks here, and we'll see if anybody on this forum agrees that they are "the absolute sound".

Make each clip less than 50 seconds - with full attribution to the copyright owners so that the forum (and we) don't get in trouble.

 

[jazdoc]

I completely agree with Gary. This is as much art as science. I no more expect to completely agree with someone else's musical tastes as I would expect to agree with anyone else's conception of physical beauty or visual art. What is important is to develop an internal gyroscope of what is sonically important to YOU. I guarantee your preferences will be very different than mine. And thank goodness for that. It would be a really boring world, stifled of creativity if we all agreed on sonic absolutes. I think the world is a better, more interesting place because Gary, Elliot and I have different tastes.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I do not believe in an absolute sound , in the end its all my fi( dont shoot me ), even the producer and the studio start mixing it the way they like and what will be good for the sales
I think the voicecoil/membrane/box design should be replaced by another technique , to raise the bar once again .
This technique is old/ simple and has been througly worked out by many manufacturers to the extreme, leaving not much room for improvements in my opinion .
Hey i read even most people want to go back to the soft domes

 

[Robert]

I still believe in an absolute sound. I just don't know how to define it.

I also believe there would be universal consensus and respect for a system that approached that sound. I don't think we would be doing the whole, "not my cup of tea", thing. If a system polarizes people, then be wary and listen for yourself.

I've also come to understand that our ears "open" to new sound experiences over time. A system should grow on you, not get old. Often, a very striking favorable impression turns into an objectionable color over time.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Gary - I'd love to discover what your "absolute sound" tracks are. Could you perhaps give us a glimpse (no clips required - just a list)?

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I do not believe in an absolute sound , in the end its all my fi( dont shoot me ), even the producer and the studio start mixing it the way they like and what will be good for the sales
I think the voicecoil/membrane/box design should be replaced by another technique , to raise the bar once again .
This technique is old/ simple and has been througly worked out by many manufacturers to the extreme, leaving not much room for improvements in my opinion .
Hey i read even most people want to go back to the soft domes

Count me as one!

 

[JackD201]

When you go to see live music you experiece the proformance on many levels. There is the sound, the ambience the sigts the smells etc. When at home you only have one the sound. We are talking abiout tow vary differnent things in my opinion. I want my system to be set up and my choices in assembling it to be as honest and faithful to the sound of the real instruments and vocals as I can afford. I need to do this first. Secondly when I listen to music I want o enjoy the program that I am playing. I want my system to be a time machine. I want it to transport me to the time and place at which the recording was made. I know I can not bring the orchestra or the rock band into my house. In order to do this everything in the path needs to be as close to the "absolute sound" as I can get it. If a solo paino or guitar is wrong, if a voice is wrong then the whole will be wrong.

See, objective wise, I could have written this. Our objectives are exactly the same.

It still doesn't mean that if I achieve this, which is often these days, that if you come over, you'd feel the same albeit many that have comeover had. BUT degrees differ. You might come over and say my system sounds like total crap and you know what? I wouldn't take the slightest bit of offense. The slight ringing I have in my right ear from unprotected firearms use in my youth makes me extra sensitive at 5k. I tend to notch this a bit. You might find my system dull. Tools have definitely helped in determining where exactly I have to do the notch (signal generator) and if I had done it right (spectrum analyzer). All ears are different and as someone posted above so are the "computers" between them.

I'm pretty close to what I consider realistic sound. You mention that at a live event we experience things differently on so many levels. Oh so true! At home there is just that one level. I disagree! Even listening to the same piece, each time is a different experience for me.

Do I have go to records? Oh yes. Are they all consisting of bunch of "audiophile approved" tracks from "audiophile labels". Ummm. NOPE. It's comprised of music I like. I'm familiar with them because I like them and hence have listened to them many times. With all the music out there, it isn't all too hard to find music you like that is well recorded.

How about the usual suspects. The Patricia Barbers Cafe Blues, the Jacintha Where's to Ben, The Jazz at the Pawnshops? I swear if I have to listen to these any more, I'll hurl. Not because they weren't recorded well. I just don't DIG 'EM!

 

[Elliot G.]

I can't seem to get through to you..... so, tell you what. You post your "absolute sound" tracks here on the forum. I'll post my "absolute sound" tracks here, and we'll see if anybody on this forum agrees that they are "the absolute sound".

Make each clip less than 50 seconds - with full attribution to the copyright owners so that the forum (and we) don't get in trouble.

Gary,
I did not say that I have absolute sound tracks. My point was that maybe we should produce some audio guideline tracks that could be used as a standard or reference point from which to start. In doing this we could have a meaningful discussion as to the validity of any of these products and a guideline for everyone to start from.
You want to find all kinds of reason to run from this and that it can't be done. It can and it should .
It is only one idea but argueing that it is this or that is just foolish.
Keith Johnson and reference recordings have made quality recordings .
I was suggesting that maybe they could make , with the input of a selected group or counsel, a selection of test type tracks that we could all use as a guideline in the process.
It seems that this is a very controversial idea to many. Music we can all use that we know how it was recorded and that it was recorded by someone we know and respect.
There are compromises in everything done in this business my suggestion, and it is just that, is a possible way to help.

 

[garylkoh]

Gary - I'd love to discover what your "absolute sound" tracks are. Could you perhaps give us a glimpse (no clips required - just a list)?

I have a set - some for imaging, some for harmonics, some for tonality. A lot of them are in my loudspeaker set-up process and available here:
http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/whitepaper/Genesis_Loudspeaker_Setup_Procedure.pdf

Others I use:
Piano scale - each and every note of a grand piano
Violins - recordings of various modern and ancient violins. Two in particular, Midori Live at Carnegie Hall, Mila Tenanbaum Devil's Thrill, James Erhnes Homage (various Stradivari, Guaneri and Armati)
Odd harmonics - River of Sorrow (FIM) - the erhu, pipa, guzheng have different harmonics from Western instruments
Guitar - Nils Lofgren Acoustic Live - he plays Takamine with Martin M280 strings
Massed voices - Bach's Motets
Male voice - Frank Sinatra Live at the Sands

Some of these I have heard "live" and compare to my memory (but then there are some who say that our sonic memory is no longer than 3 seconds), others I balance to achieve what I think would be the "correct" mix. This way, all my products from the smallest speaker to the largest have the same sonic signature. My point is that there is no "absolute sound" because what I think is the absolute sound is different from what another designer would regard as the absolute sound, and there can be no determination of who is right.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Thank you sincerely my friend...I'm off to read the pdf now!