Is Wilson losing their marketing edge?

[caesar]

I don't think so. Just look on-line and see the numbers (In fact, one can argue that Magico used prices are higher). Regardless, most of the comments here are heavily biased. Caesar keeps bashing poor Vain, never once stopping to consider that he matters very little around the world where Magico may be just as popular and maybe even more so than in the US. No one here cares about Raidho, (or Rockport) a brand that valin promote as well. He also ignores the fact that all over the world reviewers are switching to Magico as their reference, some were big Wilson's fan (like MC of HiFi critics). Magico is succeeding because of their superior performance only, nothing else. Not cleaver marketing or bigger discount to dealers (actually, you can get better deals on Wilson), or one reviewer drumbeat, and people are changing sides, and the ones that I know all go the same way (Even the distributor here, who represents both, listen to Magico at his house not Wilson).

Cannata, welcome back to the thread. Good points. One observation, however. Actions speak louder than words. Why would wolf make an extra m project speaker just for valin, let him keep it for a long while... then let him compare it to the recently released m3...

There is something to be said for telling and retelling your brand story, especially by a writing genius like valin. would a 21 year old miss universe contestant date a 90 year old man if he weren't a billionaire? why do you think wolf goes through all the trouble with getting valin his top speakers? there is no free lunch ...just food for thought

 

[cannata]

Cannata, welcome back to the thread. Good points. One observation, however. Actions speak louder than words. Why would wolf make an extra m project speaker just for valin, let him keep it for a long while... then let him compare it to the recently released m3...

There is something to be said for telling and retelling your brand story, especially by a writing genius like valin. would a 21 year old miss universe contestant date a 90 year old man if he weren't a billionaire? why do you think wolf goes through all the trouble with getting valin his top speakers? there is no free lunch ...just food for thought

Thank you, you sure have a way to bring me right back
I am not disputing Valin relationship with Magico, but you can say the same for Wilson and Fremer, or Kessler and more. It is not uncommon in any filed, it just not enough to do what Magico has manage to do. There are over 10 audio magazines in Germany, I believe Magico best market in Europe, I don't think they care much about the US reviewers, they all have their own ego, and voice. A lot of them don't even speaker English.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I live in europe as well and although i never read magazines anymore ,( its more for hifi beginners lol ).
What i do know is that europes magazines and dealers are running after the us market for a great deal , same as the worldfinancial markets go more or less up and down with the S en P .
A large part of the world sees the US as kind of leading opinion wise .

Its for example very hard for a brand to be picked up worldwide in my view if it doesnt have the blessing of lets say absolute sound stereophile and soundstage for example.

As far as wilson loosing its edge or market share ?
Shurely there are more brands that pay high attention to their housings these days , wilson is not the only one anymore to use high class non resonant materials , magico does it through extensiveley braced alu slabs , rock port has a way kharma , etc

 

[cannata]

Talk about marketing, as Wilson try to be more like Magico, it seems that Magico it trying to be more like Wilson. Just saw this image of the new S3, notice the "domesticated" approach

 

[microstrip]

Talk about marketing, as Wilson try to be more like Magico, it seems that Magico it trying to be more like Wilson. Just saw this image of the new S3, notice the "domesticated" approach

I do not think that Wilson tries to be more like Magico. They keep their own style.

 

[microstrip]

I live in europe as well and although i never read magazines anymore ,( its more for hifi beginners lol ).
(...)

Although I now read a lot less than some years ago, I must say that reading from magazines is still a mandatory activity for me. IMHO we learn a lot reading from the good articles in the high-end press. And I do not consider myself as an hifi beginner!

 

[mauidan]

I do not think that Wilson tries to be more like Magico. They keep their own style.

+1

 

[andromedaaudio]

Your the exeption lol
In germany they have a magazine with a" bestenliste " , i bought once one of the top power amplifiers on that list krell evo 400 s
I listened to them for a few years got bored and had boulder 1060 surpass them zanden 7000 and finally the convergent JL 2 sign , none of them were in the magazine go figure , what a waist , same with hifi shops i wouldnt swap my system what i have today no more , very happy with the performance 10 years ago i used to look up to the performance presented , its an evolutionary process thats what i meant
If i buy new components i usually read soundstage and to a lesser extent stereophile .

Although I now read a lot less than some years ago, I must say that reading from magazines is still a mandatory activity for me. IMHO we learn a lot reading from the good articles in the high-end press. And I do not consider myself as an hifi beginner!

 

[PeterA]

Cannata, welcome back to the thread. Good points. One observation, however. Actions speak louder than words. Why would wolf make an extra m project speaker just for valin, let him keep it for a long while... then let him compare it to the recently released m3...

There is something to be said for telling and retelling your brand story, especially by a writing genius like valin. would a 21 year old miss universe contestant date a 90 year old man if he weren't a billionaire? why do you think wolf goes through all the trouble with getting valin his top speakers? there is no free lunch ...just food for thought

There's another way to look at it: from Valin's point of view rather than from Wolf's. Valin, given his position, could probably have any speaker he wants on a long term loan or at great accommodation pricing. He chooses Magico. Perhaps he really likes them. If you go back to the beginning and read his Magico Mini review, it it clear that he was very impressed with the sound, and that was long before he knew what Magico would become. Perhaps Wolf thinks Valin is a great writer and Valin thinks Wolf makes a great speaker.

One could also just look at the wall of magazine covers in Magico's lobby. Magico's brand awareness goes way beyond TAS and Jonathan Valin. They have made quite a splash in Europe and Asia.

Of course, with Harley and Wilson, and Valin and Magico, TAS has the two giants covered.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

as far as Magico and Wilson and reviews and such, it's clear that Magico views Stereophile, and Fremer specifically, as less than 'safe'. Fremer is not afraid of anyone, and might write anything. he ignores political correctness.....and good for him on that.

OTOH Absolute Sound in general is quite a bit more politically correct and much safer for them.....and while I enjoy reading Absolute Sound I always take their views with a bit of cynicism.

Magico has nothing to gain by risking much with Stereophile. if I was them I would do exactly what they are doing. possibly as their designs continue to evolve to a less polarizing presentation maybe their caution will subside.

I have no dog in the fight and that is just how it looks to me.

 

[witchdoctor]

There's another way to look at it: from Valin's point of view rather than from Wolf's. Valin, given his position, could probably have any speaker he wants on a long term loan or at great accommodation pricing. He chooses Magico. Perhaps he really likes them. If you go back to the beginning and read his Magico Mini review, it it clear that he was very impressed with the sound, and that was long before he knew what Magico would become. Perhaps Wolf thinks Valin is a great writer and Valin thinks Wolf makes a great speaker.

One could also just look at the wall of magazine covers in Magico's lobby. Magico's brand awareness goes way beyond TAS and Jonathan Valin. They have made quite a splash in Europe and Asia.

Of course, with Harley and Wilson, and Valin and Magico, TAS has the two giants covered.

I think it is a dubious claim to say what a reviewer paid for a speaker. Magazines want to sell ads and and be paid in cash, not in speakers. As for what gear a reviewer chooses it has to be gear that will accommodate a variety of components. When manufacturers send gear for review they can be sticklers for the type of gear you pair it with, When you throw out a brand like Magico or Mark Levinson what can they say?

 

[microstrip]

Your the exeption lol
In germany they have a magazine with a" bestenliste " , i bought once one of the top power amplifiers on that list krell evo (...)

Experienced audiophiles know what means "best list" and how to consider them ...

I have offered 90% of my thirty years old collection of European magazines to a good friend, but kept those I consider of interest or were part of my audiophile life -e.g. the HFN two part review of the Quad ESL63! Still keep my full collection of TAS since #1 and many selected copies of Stereophile and FI.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Off course there are nice reviews , but the inevitable problem that arises with reviewing /magazines is , every new component has to be sold , and be possibly better then older stuff off course in some cases it is make no mistake about it .
What you end up with largely imo is a sense less merry go round of audiophiles swapping products.

PS it basically is a manufacturers problem probably as well , because to keep the company going you need new products to sell and replace the old ones , basically you cant just make a good product at once , you need at least a mk 10 version or replace productlines.


Exceptions are for example Boulder 1060 , what 20 years in production ?? lamm comes to mind dartzeel.

Bad example afaic is levinson the older products still appeal more to me then the newer krell the same.

Ps How could an industry which dismisses digital for analogue and states that analogue still being SOTA ,... so much for progress in audio ,.... 1/2 inch tape , 30 inch/sec tape still the best lol

 

[witchdoctor]

Off course there are nice reviews , but the inevitable problem that arises with reviewing /magazines is , every new component has to be sold , and be possibly better then older stuff off course in some cases it is make no mistake about it .
What you end up with largely imo is a sense less merry go round of audiophiles swapping products.

PS it basically is a manufacturers problem probably as well , because to keep the company going you need new products to sell and replace the old ones , basically you cant just make a good product at once , you need at least a mk 10 version or replace productlines.


Exceptions are for example Boulder 1060 , what 20 years in production ?? lamm comes to mind dartzeel.

Bad example afaic is levinson the older products still appeal more to me then the newer krell the same.

Ps How could an industry which dismisses digital for analogue and states that being SOTA ,... so much for progress in audio ,.... 1/2 inch tape , 30 inch/sec tape still the best lol

Audiophiles making sense? That is an oxymoron if ever I heard one. If "audiophiles" built systems logically instead of emotionally I don't think there would be "audiophiles", just a bunch of people with a phone, headphones, and a soundbar for when they watch tv.

 

[caesar]

..in his eqpt breakdown JV lists a pr of M Project speakers. Even at accommodation pricing it's hard to imagine he could afford them. Long term loan? Here are what he lists as his "reference" speakers: Magico M Project, Raidho D-5.1, Raidho D-1, Avantgarde Zero 1, MartinLogan CLX, Magnepan .7, Magnepan 1.7, Magnepan 3.7, Magnepan 20.7...seriously? I want to be an audio journalist..

Right on, ES. But let's forget the speakers - I would bet the cables loaned out to him retail more than the cost of his home...

 

[caesar]

There's another way to look at it: from Valin's point of view rather than from Wolf's. Valin, given his position, could probably have any speaker he wants on a long term loan or at great accommodation pricing. He chooses Magico. Perhaps he really likes them. If you go back to the beginning and read his Magico Mini review, it it clear that he was very impressed with the sound, and that was long before he knew what Magico would become. Perhaps Wolf thinks Valin is a great writer and Valin thinks Wolf makes a great speaker.

One could also just look at the wall of magazine covers in Magico's lobby. Magico's brand awareness goes way beyond TAS and Jonathan Valin. They have made quite a splash in Europe and Asia.

Of course, with Harley and Wilson, and Valin and Magico, TAS has the two giants covered.

Peter, a few thoughts:
- I agree with you - valin likes them a lot. He also likes the fact that they "improve" (or make different sounding) speakers every few years. After all, it's hard to fake love over a long period of time. He has bought into the magico brand story and has embellished it over the years...
- Let's also not forget that it was Harry Pearson who first discovered the magico mini for TAS... To many folks the q1 is nothing like the mini, to others it's an improvement. And taste-wise, Harry Pearson would never pair magico and soulution...
- I am not convinced Harley is a Wilson guy. Surprisingly, he was invited to David Wilson's house to listen to the WAMM. Before that, he dissed the Alexandria xlf for having a silk tweeter in favor of some exotic metal tweeter magico used in q7 v1. He also still uses the magico q7 as his reference. But let's also remember that this guy couldn't tell any weaknesses in q7, such as no beitzim in the bass and a spotlighting of the upper midrange / lower treble in the q7 - until only after the q7 v2 came out! This sonic signature of the q series was obvious to every listener since q series came out, even to valin eventually. Who can respect Harley after that debacle? Amazing that Tom Martin, who owns TAS, has abdicated his leadership to him...But hey, this is a business, so maybe David Wilson bit his lip and will now let Harley have the WAMM so that he dump magico???
- As for marketing influence technique, I have read that in some cultures, particularly Asian cultures which are less individualist and more collectivist, people do not trust themselves as much as people do in the west, so they seek out authority figures and base their decisions disproportionally on those. For the rest of us, there are multiple influence techniques at play beyond appeal to authority, including seeking attention using exotic materials, social proof of large amount of people packing rooms at shows, scarcity, hearing emotionally-laden stories, etc. The combination of these methods is much more potent than just a single technique...

 

[caesar]

I think it is a dubious claim to say what a reviewer paid for a speaker. Magazines want to sell ads and and be paid in cash, not in speakers. As for what gear a reviewer chooses it has to be gear that will accommodate a variety of components. When manufacturers send gear for review they can be sticklers for the type of gear you pair it with, When you throw out a brand like Magico or Mark Levinson what can they say?

Hi Witchdoctor, one thing to keep in mind is that the incentives of the magazines don't align with the incentives of the reviewers writing for the magazines. A simple example: "Sterile" Jon Valin of TAS has championed "transparency to source" / analytical gear in the Absolute Sound, a magazine whose mission under Harry Pearson was to stir the reader's imagination to connect to "real" music, not to think about splices in recording or farts in the audience...

 

[caesar]

as far as Magico and Wilson and reviews and such, it's clear that Magico views Stereophile, and Fremer specifically, as less than 'safe'. Fremer is not afraid of anyone, and might write anything. he ignores political correctness.....and good for him on that.

OTOH Absolute Sound in general is quite a bit more politically correct and much safer for them.....and while I enjoy reading Absolute Sound I always take their views with a bit of cynicism.

Magico has nothing to gain by risking much with Stereophile. if I was them I would do exactly what they are doing. possibly as their designs continue to evolve to a less polarizing presentation maybe their caution will subside.

I have no dog in the fight and that is just how it looks to me.

Mike, good points. Not sure if you are aware, but John Atkinson is currently reviewing the magico S5 v2. We can guess that it will win product of the year, but will be entertaining to read. Knowing Atkinson's reputation, he will likely be fair to reader's who will be spending hard earned money. But we will see...

 

[microstrip]

Mike, good points. Not sure if you are aware, but John Atkinson is currently reviewing the magico S5 v2. We can guess that it will win product of the year, but will be entertaining to read. (...)

And the WAMM???

 

[caesar]

And the WAMM???

That really would be something! Is this wishful thinking, or did you get this from a credible source?